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I was at the Napa identity conference referenced in the first paragraph. It was expensive but we were invited because of the unique identity work we were doing

I was at the Napa identity conference referenced in the first paragraph. It was expensive but we were invited because of the unique identity work we were doing with our startup Gliph at the time. Our goals then we’re to be an identity provider. We were not the only ones trying at this—-personal.com was much better funded and tied into DC—did nothing interesting but also hoped to store personal data securely and make it available when users desired to share. We hunted use cases for identity like the Predator. Pivoting into secure messaging, Bitcoin, and finally a marketplace. But could not find a way to make it work. Building identity in the vacuum of a useful and popular service doesn’t work. At least, we were unable to make this work.

jcims 7y ago
Who was your customer? Seems like that would be the hardest problem to solve.
- bredren 7y ago
  We made the most money selling disposable emails, something we called Cloaked Email. It was similar to what Apple is offering soon. https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/14/gliph-launches-new-cloaked-email-service-thatll-hide-your-real/ https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/14/gliph-launches-new-cloak... At the time privacy was a thing that seemed possible to monetize. Over time that is true but it comes “for free” at the platform level now to some extent with Apple. We wanted ultimately to get paid from companies seeking personal data from their users. Users would allow it, then we would federate the data and co would pay for the privlidge.
erikpukinskis 7y ago
You need decentralized apps for centralized identity to work I think. Ironic I guess. But if you can have decentralized apps where the app writer is decoupled from the app hosts (miners on Ethereum or similar), then there is a market for basically a identity+locker service sold directly to consumers. You need a cadre of great already written decentralized apps for that market to make sense, and we are possibly still 10 years away from that day. PhD students smarter than either of us are scratching their heads literally right now to even describe that first wave of apps. Five years til they defend their dissertations. Then the race is on.
- vageli 7y ago
  > You need decentralized apps for centralized identity to work I think. Ironic I guess. Can you expand on this? I don't see how that conclusion follows.
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    Google, Facebook, etc have so many apps and have so many users that it would be crazy for them not to control their identity systems. A team of 20 people maintaining OAuth servers is a rounding error for them. They tend to want as many moats as possible (not because moats are good, but because you have to be paranoid AF to grow to a multi billion dollar company.) With distributed apps, the app writer doesn’t host their app, it’s hosted by random miners all over the world. This makes open source hosted services suddenly very easy for individuals to write. You don’t have to start a company to host your service, you just have to write it. Similar to the olden days when you could just throw up a tarball on a FTP site and millions of people could use your app. So it’s a very lightweight social structure holding up the nuts and bolts of running the service. However that creates a problem: there’s no trusted party there who is actually unlocking your data and assuring you and other that you are in fact you. If you have super duper OpSec skills, of course you can just maintain your private keys, get a safety deposit box for your backup tokens, etc. But for normal users that won’t be an option, so this space of open source decentralized apps will create a market for someone to provide at least basic identity services: holding backup keys, resetting your passwords, revoking session tokens, etc. And once you’re doing that you might as well throw in drivers license validation, group level data access control, etc.
grey-area 7y ago
We hunted use cases for identity like the Predator. Pivoting into secure messaging, Bitcoin, and finally a marketplace. But could not find a way to make it work. The entire existing global payments system would not function without verified identity. Healthcare would not function without verified identity (both for payment but also for tracking treatments and outcomes). Existing marketplaces often require verified identity (as it helps combat fraud). Vehicle license plates depend on verified identity (and are part of a system to enforce that). Border control requires verified identities. There are so many places in our current society where verified identity is essential, and already a solved problem (yes the solutions aren't perfect, but they are in place). Bitcoin failed IMO precisely because it actively avoids tackling identity, which has been a central part of finance for as long as it has existed. It might be hard to usurp the place states have claimed for themselves in verifying the identify of their citizens, or to make money from it, but it is absolutely central to how any society functions. Identity is not dead just because some purveyors of online authentication think it would be easier not to deal with it. In fact I think identity not provided by states but claimed by the individual is a very interesting unsolved problem.
- cbetti 7y ago
  Cash
  - grey-area 7y ago
    What about it? You think the global financial system runs on cash? No.
- bredren 7y ago
  Not sure what your suggesting. Are you saying there is room for some new identity provider? Fwiw, people have been hyping what an “interesting unsolved problem” identity is for a long time. As far as I can tell, the existing solutions are more than good enough that any additional hacks are already built on top of them.
  - grey-area 7y ago
victorkab 7y ago
Bredren - As somebody who has a startup in this space and growing, I'd love to hear more from your experience, my email is on my account page, shoot me an email. We didn't take the crypto/blockchain approach at Truework. In our case, we started from a use case with verified identity needs and we are going towards a more generic identity management system.
- bredren 7y ago
  I can only warn off from this direction. There is no product unless a core problem is being solved.

jcims 7y ago

Who was your customer? Seems like that would be the hardest problem to solve.

bredren 7y ago
We made the most money selling disposable emails, something we called Cloaked Email. It was similar to what Apple is offering soon. https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/14/gliph-launches-new-cloaked-email-service-thatll-hide-your-real/ https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/14/gliph-launches-new-cloak... At the time privacy was a thing that seemed possible to monetize. Over time that is true but it comes “for free” at the platform level now to some extent with Apple. We wanted ultimately to get paid from companies seeking personal data from their users. Users would allow it, then we would federate the data and co would pay for the privlidge.

erikpukinskis 7y ago

You need decentralized apps for centralized identity to work I think. Ironic I guess. But if you can have decentralized apps where the app writer is decoupled from the app hosts (miners on Ethereum or similar), then there is a market for basically a identity+locker service sold directly to consumers. You need a cadre of great already written decentralized apps for that market to make sense, and we are possibly still 10 years away from that day. PhD students smarter than either of us are scratching their heads literally right now to even describe that first wave of apps. Five years til they defend their dissertations. Then the race is on.

vageli 7y ago
> You need decentralized apps for centralized identity to work I think. Ironic I guess. Can you expand on this? I don't see how that conclusion follows.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  Google, Facebook, etc have so many apps and have so many users that it would be crazy for them not to control their identity systems. A team of 20 people maintaining OAuth servers is a rounding error for them. They tend to want as many moats as possible (not because moats are good, but because you have to be paranoid AF to grow to a multi billion dollar company.) With distributed apps, the app writer doesn’t host their app, it’s hosted by random miners all over the world. This makes open source hosted services suddenly very easy for individuals to write. You don’t have to start a company to host your service, you just have to write it. Similar to the olden days when you could just throw up a tarball on a FTP site and millions of people could use your app. So it’s a very lightweight social structure holding up the nuts and bolts of running the service. However that creates a problem: there’s no trusted party there who is actually unlocking your data and assuring you and other that you are in fact you. If you have super duper OpSec skills, of course you can just maintain your private keys, get a safety deposit box for your backup tokens, etc. But for normal users that won’t be an option, so this space of open source decentralized apps will create a market for someone to provide at least basic identity services: holding backup keys, resetting your passwords, revoking session tokens, etc. And once you’re doing that you might as well throw in drivers license validation, group level data access control, etc.

grey-area 7y ago

We hunted use cases for identity like the Predator. Pivoting into secure messaging, Bitcoin, and finally a marketplace. But could not find a way to make it work. The entire existing global payments system would not function without verified identity. Healthcare would not function without verified identity (both for payment but also for tracking treatments and outcomes). Existing marketplaces often require verified identity (as it helps combat fraud). Vehicle license plates depend on verified identity (and are part of a system to enforce that). Border control requires verified identities. There are so many places in our current society where verified identity is essential, and already a solved problem (yes the solutions aren't perfect, but they are in place). Bitcoin failed IMO precisely because it actively avoids tackling identity, which has been a central part of finance for as long as it has existed. It might be hard to usurp the place states have claimed for themselves in verifying the identify of their citizens, or to make money from it, but it is absolutely central to how any society functions. Identity is not dead just because some purveyors of online authentication think it would be easier not to deal with it. In fact I think identity not provided by states but claimed by the individual is a very interesting unsolved problem.

cbetti 7y ago
Cash
- grey-area 7y ago
  What about it? You think the global financial system runs on cash? No.
bredren 7y ago
Not sure what your suggesting. Are you saying there is room for some new identity provider? Fwiw, people have been hyping what an “interesting unsolved problem” identity is for a long time. As far as I can tell, the existing solutions are more than good enough that any additional hacks are already built on top of them.
- grey-area 7y ago

victorkab 7y ago

Bredren - As somebody who has a startup in this space and growing, I'd love to hear more from your experience, my email is on my account page, shoot me an email. We didn't take the crypto/blockchain approach at Truework. In our case, we started from a use case with verified identity needs and we are going towards a more generic identity management system.

bredren 7y ago
I can only warn off from this direction. There is no product unless a core problem is being solved.