7 ms·

It might not change HK government attitude after all, but it shows that Hong Kongers align with western values - no one should live under the fear of arbitrary

by terenceng2010 7y ago

It might not change HK government attitude after all, but it shows that Hong Kongers align with western values - no one should live under the fear of arbitrary prosecution.

math_and_stuff 7y ago
Why say 'align with western values' instead of 'respect human rights'? Freedom of speech and assembly are encoded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- intopieces 7y ago
  Because the issue they are protesting is extradition and the rule of law being maintained; HK has a western style rule of law, mainland has practically no rule of law to speak of.
  - wltprgm 7y ago
    Just to add to your comment, the Hong Kong laws being "western" is exactly why mainland want to take charge of Hong Kong It's a no brainer. And probably I will get downvoted by mentioning this. The Tiananmen Square massacre, which originated due to the protesters fighting for more freedom/human rights, from I heard from my uncle, it was because of the influence from westerners. (edit: I was talking about how western values influence the students to protest, not the way they were massacred) Furthermore, he even mentioned how the first Opium War (namely Anglo-Chinese War), WW1 and WW2 were originated from the UK/US (although I did learn about history, he still wanted to reinforce this idea). And the Holocaust (by German forces) made the Jews eventually moved to Israel and stole Palestine's land. The wars in the Middle East are caused by US as well. (edit: influenced, at least by the US) Even the wars in Russia are actually supported by the US (Sorry I am not familiar with this one) I mean, don't downvote me for no reason. edit: apparently some of you downvoted me, guess you guys are from the west anyways, don't dare to admit the history? Quoting a comment from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQTo9usai4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQTo9usai4 > Can't beat them ...ban them (China), can't fight them...sanction them (Russia), can't get the oil...mess them (Venezula), can't make them obey...war with them (Iran)...The Born Loser.
    - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      > The Tiananmen Square massacre, which originated due to the protesters fighting for more freedom/human rights, from I heard from my uncle, it was because of the influence from westerners This is garbage. The massacre happened because Beijing responded ham-fistedly to a peaceful student demonstration. It involved atrocities including PLA troops firing on their own ambulances and dissolving bodies under tanks and in vats of acid [1]. And while the protests in Beijing are memorialised by Tank Man, there were protests in pretty much every other Chinese city at the time. They were all brutally suppressed in favour of the ruling elite. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protes...
      - wltprgm 7y ago
        Your response to my comment is silly. I was talking about the ultimate reason why they protested, it was influenced by the west, human rights. Not the way they were massacred, or how people memorialized them. I am definitely stunned to know how hacker news people comprehend edit: confirmed hacker news upvote/downvote buttons work like reddit's ones, and in turn work like facebook one except facebook doesn't have a downvote button neither
        loyukfai 7y ago
        Well, respect of human rights maybe a relatively recent "western" concept, but judging from the fact that so many family members of the top brass of the communist party of China have become citizens in these "Western" countries, it does seem that they themselves do embrace such values (when it doesn't confront their own interest).
        wltprgm 7y ago
        Yea, it doesn't stop the wars influenced by the US, like in the middle east, palestinian wars, US-China trade war, negative relationship between russia and the US and Putin stands by the China regarding the ban of Huawei https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-forum-putin/putin-stands-by-china-criticizes-u-s-in-trade-huawei-disputes-idUSKCN1T819W https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-forum-putin/putin-... I mean, what are you guys doing with human rights again?
  - godelski 7y ago
    I think the distinction trying to be made here is that Chinese, Hongkongers, and Taiwanese people don't see themselves as westerners. Posters aren't saying that they shouldn't fight for basic human rights, but rather that basic human rights aren't "western", they are human. We being westerners should be proud that we have laws like this, but that doesn't mean we need to impose everything western on others. It also doesn't mean that our fight for basic human rights is fundamentally western. Just the same way it isn't American, British, German, etc. They are basic human rights after all, and last I checked these people are still humans. TLDR: basic human rights doesn't mean you have to identify as western.
- indy7500 7y ago
  Human rights written by westerners.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- scarcelycoher 7y ago
  Because it's a Freudian slip that reveals what this is all about. Google "kiron skinner"
- rayiner 7y ago
  The UN, particularly at that time (1948), was a creation and creature of the western world. The drafting committee was chaired by Eleanor Roosevelt: http://research.un.org/en/undhr/draftingcommittee http://research.un.org/en/undhr/draftingcommittee. Of the nine drafters, six were from a western country (US, UK, France, Australia, and Chile). Two (the ROC delegate and the Lebanese delegate) were educated in the US. (The ROC delegate moved to New Jersey and lived there until his death). The other delegate was from Russia, which is a mostly western country.
  - Zenbit_UX 7y ago
    You're using "west" as in western aligned? If not Australia and Russia are most definitely not western geographically. I've also never heard of Russia mentioned as western or grouped with other western countries. There's a lot of political tension between Russia and the "west" some I'm surprised to hear you say that.
    - rayiner 7y ago
      "Western" is generally defined in terms of historical/cultural affiliation, not geography. Almost 90% of Australia's population is of English/Irish/Scottish descent, and Australia's laws, institutions, and culture are directly descended from Britain. Russia is harder to pin down. Historically, they self-identified as western, even though the geographic center of Russia is actually in Asia.
heraclius 7y ago
This idea that fundamental human rights are “western values” is profoundly unhelpful, because it implies that in some sense to fight injustice is to no longer be truly Chinese—a nonsense whose propagation is both supported by and helpful to the CCP.
- jasonjei 7y ago
  Taiwan is a very democratic and open society, but evolved on its own from a dictatorship to a proud free society. I think many Taiwanese would be very proud to say they developed it with their own distinctive Taiwanese values (and bento box throwing matches in the Legislative Yuan).
- gwright 7y ago
  At one level I understand what you area saying but at another level I think your statement undermines what it means to relinquish one set of ideas in favor of another. It is perhaps a hindrance that we don't have an ethnic-neutral term for the set of ideas associated with "western values" but "western" is descriptive of the origin not the applicability of the ideas. In order to genuinally adopt and espouse "western values" you have to at some level abandon "non-western values". This of course has as a pre-requisite that you've discarded the notion of multiculturalism -- at least the version of multiculturalism that insists that avoiding value judgements between cultures as a virtue unto itself.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    What makes it tough is that many more cultures have a concept of "fundamental human rights" than ones that agree with western countries on which specific rights are fundamental.
    - gwright 7y ago
      You have to add in a lot of other ideas though to come close to the basket of ideas associated with "western values". For example: limited government, representative government, scientific inquiry, equality of women, due process, free markets, private property, contract law, and so on.

It might not change HK government attitude after all, but it shows that Hong Kongers align with western values - no one should live under the fear of arbitrary prosecution.

math_and_stuff 7y ago

Why say 'align with western values' instead of 'respect human rights'? Freedom of speech and assembly are encoded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

intopieces 7y ago
Because the issue they are protesting is extradition and the rule of law being maintained; HK has a western style rule of law, mainland has practically no rule of law to speak of.
- wltprgm 7y ago
  Just to add to your comment, the Hong Kong laws being "western" is exactly why mainland want to take charge of Hong Kong It's a no brainer. And probably I will get downvoted by mentioning this. The Tiananmen Square massacre, which originated due to the protesters fighting for more freedom/human rights, from I heard from my uncle, it was because of the influence from westerners. (edit: I was talking about how western values influence the students to protest, not the way they were massacred) Furthermore, he even mentioned how the first Opium War (namely Anglo-Chinese War), WW1 and WW2 were originated from the UK/US (although I did learn about history, he still wanted to reinforce this idea). And the Holocaust (by German forces) made the Jews eventually moved to Israel and stole Palestine's land. The wars in the Middle East are caused by US as well. (edit: influenced, at least by the US) Even the wars in Russia are actually supported by the US (Sorry I am not familiar with this one) I mean, don't downvote me for no reason. edit: apparently some of you downvoted me, guess you guys are from the west anyways, don't dare to admit the history? Quoting a comment from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQTo9usai4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEQTo9usai4 > Can't beat them ...ban them (China), can't fight them...sanction them (Russia), can't get the oil...mess them (Venezula), can't make them obey...war with them (Iran)...The Born Loser.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > The Tiananmen Square massacre, which originated due to the protesters fighting for more freedom/human rights, from I heard from my uncle, it was because of the influence from westerners This is garbage. The massacre happened because Beijing responded ham-fistedly to a peaceful student demonstration. It involved atrocities including PLA troops firing on their own ambulances and dissolving bodies under tanks and in vats of acid [1]. And while the protests in Beijing are memorialised by Tank Man, there were protests in pretty much every other Chinese city at the time. They were all brutally suppressed in favour of the ruling elite. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protes...
    - wltprgm 7y ago
      Your response to my comment is silly. I was talking about the ultimate reason why they protested, it was influenced by the west, human rights. Not the way they were massacred, or how people memorialized them. I am definitely stunned to know how hacker news people comprehend edit: confirmed hacker news upvote/downvote buttons work like reddit's ones, and in turn work like facebook one except facebook doesn't have a downvote button neither
      - loyukfai 7y ago
        Well, respect of human rights maybe a relatively recent "western" concept, but judging from the fact that so many family members of the top brass of the communist party of China have become citizens in these "Western" countries, it does seem that they themselves do embrace such values (when it doesn't confront their own interest).
        wltprgm 7y ago
        Yea, it doesn't stop the wars influenced by the US, like in the middle east, palestinian wars, US-China trade war, negative relationship between russia and the US and Putin stands by the China regarding the ban of Huawei https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-forum-putin/putin-stands-by-china-criticizes-u-s-in-trade-huawei-disputes-idUSKCN1T819W https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-forum-putin/putin-... I mean, what are you guys doing with human rights again?
- godelski 7y ago
  I think the distinction trying to be made here is that Chinese, Hongkongers, and Taiwanese people don't see themselves as westerners. Posters aren't saying that they shouldn't fight for basic human rights, but rather that basic human rights aren't "western", they are human. We being westerners should be proud that we have laws like this, but that doesn't mean we need to impose everything western on others. It also doesn't mean that our fight for basic human rights is fundamentally western. Just the same way it isn't American, British, German, etc. They are basic human rights after all, and last I checked these people are still humans. TLDR: basic human rights doesn't mean you have to identify as western.
indy7500 7y ago
Human rights written by westerners.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
scarcelycoher 7y ago
Because it's a Freudian slip that reveals what this is all about. Google "kiron skinner"
rayiner 7y ago
The UN, particularly at that time (1948), was a creation and creature of the western world. The drafting committee was chaired by Eleanor Roosevelt: http://research.un.org/en/undhr/draftingcommittee http://research.un.org/en/undhr/draftingcommittee. Of the nine drafters, six were from a western country (US, UK, France, Australia, and Chile). Two (the ROC delegate and the Lebanese delegate) were educated in the US. (The ROC delegate moved to New Jersey and lived there until his death). The other delegate was from Russia, which is a mostly western country.
- Zenbit_UX 7y ago
  You're using "west" as in western aligned? If not Australia and Russia are most definitely not western geographically. I've also never heard of Russia mentioned as western or grouped with other western countries. There's a lot of political tension between Russia and the "west" some I'm surprised to hear you say that.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    "Western" is generally defined in terms of historical/cultural affiliation, not geography. Almost 90% of Australia's population is of English/Irish/Scottish descent, and Australia's laws, institutions, and culture are directly descended from Britain. Russia is harder to pin down. Historically, they self-identified as western, even though the geographic center of Russia is actually in Asia.

heraclius 7y ago

This idea that fundamental human rights are “western values” is profoundly unhelpful, because it implies that in some sense to fight injustice is to no longer be truly Chinese—a nonsense whose propagation is both supported by and helpful to the CCP.

jasonjei 7y ago
Taiwan is a very democratic and open society, but evolved on its own from a dictatorship to a proud free society. I think many Taiwanese would be very proud to say they developed it with their own distinctive Taiwanese values (and bento box throwing matches in the Legislative Yuan).
gwright 7y ago
At one level I understand what you area saying but at another level I think your statement undermines what it means to relinquish one set of ideas in favor of another. It is perhaps a hindrance that we don't have an ethnic-neutral term for the set of ideas associated with "western values" but "western" is descriptive of the origin not the applicability of the ideas. In order to genuinally adopt and espouse "western values" you have to at some level abandon "non-western values". This of course has as a pre-requisite that you've discarded the notion of multiculturalism -- at least the version of multiculturalism that insists that avoiding value judgements between cultures as a virtue unto itself.
- rayiner 7y ago
  What makes it tough is that many more cultures have a concept of "fundamental human rights" than ones that agree with western countries on which specific rights are fundamental.
  - gwright 7y ago
    You have to add in a lot of other ideas though to come close to the basket of ideas associated with "western values". For example: limited government, representative government, scientific inquiry, equality of women, due process, free markets, private property, contract law, and so on.