5 ms·

How come France is so reasonable and pragmatic with this where most other western EU (especially Germany) are going the Luddite way?

Zealotux 7y ago
The anti-nuclear sentiment is pretty strong in France as well[1], but if we compare to Germany for example: - in 2016, 72% of the energy generation in France was nuclear, Germany never came close to that percentage[2], therefore making it easier to transition away from it. - France invested a lot into nuclear energy and no government since then would dare to throw such a huge industry (2500 companies, 222 000 jobs) into the trash. I don't think it was the case with other European countries. There's a lot of pride surrounding our history of nuclear research (since Pierre and Marie Curie), and politicians are often accused by militants of falling for the sunken-cost fallacy or to have a misplaced pride into the industry ("En France on n'a pas de pétrole mais on a des idées" - "In France, we don't have oil, but we sure have ideas"). Ultimately: the percentage of nuclear-based energy in France should go down to 50% by 2025, I just hope we'll manage to reduce our carbon monoxide emissions as well, Germany gave up on nuclear and they're failing at that so far. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Franc... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany#/media/File:Electricity_production_in_Germany.PNG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany#/medi...
- pgeorgi 7y ago
  > France invested a lot into nuclear energy and no government since then would dare to throw such a huge industry (2500 companies, 222 000 jobs) into the trash. I don't think it was the case with other European countries. Germany all but killed off an industry of 80000 jobs (at the time) in the blink of an eye: photovoltaics. One other main difference is that having your own nuclear industry is also important for countries aiming for (or having) nuclear deterrence power, like France (and unlike Germany which merely hosts US nukes).
  - Faark 7y ago
    Could you elaborate on how Germany did kill of the photovoltaics industry? Since this seems different than I remember. Solar panel production in Germany mostly died because it couldn't be price competitive with those from China. Installations went down due to reduced subsidies, apparently as an reaction to more than expected solar being installed [0]. I have a hard time calling that "killing of an industry". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renewable_Energy_Sources_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renewable_Energy_Source...
    - pgeorgi 7y ago
      > Installations went down due to reduced subsidies, apparently as an reaction to more than expected solar being installed [0]. I have a hard time calling that "killing of an industry". "So we kickstarted an industry that created 80000 jobs by subsidizing it, and now we noticed that subsidies actually cost money, so let's turn off the faucet" is what I call a killing. One of the issues in German politics is that politicians are easily scared of their own courage, instead of doubling down on it (and, in this case, help drive costs down for Germany-made PV through more industrialized and scaled-up production, thereby solving the subsidy problem while propping up an industry instead of leaving it for dead). It's especially annoying to me because one of the "arguments" in favor of keeping coal alive is that there are 20000 jobs to protect in that industry (and for much more money than it would cost to give those 20000 folks their wage + social security/insurance, no questions asked, until their retirement age, which makes me think that's all just a ruse).
pjc50 7y ago
Dirigisme. It's long been a more centrally planned country with a greater propensity for big state technology projects. The Green movement does not seem strong in France, but I'm not sure why.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
  > The Green movement does not seem strong in France, but I'm not sure why. I have a theory. The French people like the American people put a great deal of value on liberty. Most of the purposed changes made by green activists involve ratcheting up state control the citizen's daily life and as a result are unpopular.
  - einpoklum 7y ago
    So, "people" build nuclear reactors in their "daily life"? Sorry for impinging in your "personal liberty" to place me at risk of a nuclear holocaust. Must be my authoritarian statist tendencies.
    - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement For more background
      - einpoklum 7y ago
        How does this relate to nuclear reactors? I do realize how Macro used environmental concerns as an excuse to burden poorer people in peripheral areas with more taxes (rather than, say, taxing the rich and helping to finance hybrid or lower-emission, fuel-efficient vehicles for people in the countryside).
        fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
        The reason they are wearing the yellow vests are because some government official who knows better than the population decided that everyone must carry two of them in their cars at all times. Similarly they also decided to raise fuel taxes (cars are required for rural life) and subsidize public transport (used in urban areas). The French are also pragmatic and have seen the failure of the German green energy model, why on earth would they want to do that?
pgeorgi 7y ago
Unlike Germans, the French (thanks to their increased distance) don't have to check their wild mushrooms or boar for radioactive residues to this day due to Chernobyl: https://www.bfs.de/DE/themen/ion/umwelt/lebensmittel/pilze-wildbret/pilze-wildbret.html https://www.bfs.de/DE/themen/ion/umwelt/lebensmittel/pilze-w...

Zealotux 7y ago

The anti-nuclear sentiment is pretty strong in France as well[1], but if we compare to Germany for example: - in 2016, 72% of the energy generation in France was nuclear, Germany never came close to that percentage[2], therefore making it easier to transition away from it. - France invested a lot into nuclear energy and no government since then would dare to throw such a huge industry (2500 companies, 222 000 jobs) into the trash. I don't think it was the case with other European countries. There's a lot of pride surrounding our history of nuclear research (since Pierre and Marie Curie), and politicians are often accused by militants of falling for the sunken-cost fallacy or to have a misplaced pride into the industry ("En France on n'a pas de pétrole mais on a des idées" - "In France, we don't have oil, but we sure have ideas"). Ultimately: the percentage of nuclear-based energy in France should go down to 50% by 2025, I just hope we'll manage to reduce our carbon monoxide emissions as well, Germany gave up on nuclear and they're failing at that so far. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Franc... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany#/media/File:Electricity_production_in_Germany.PNG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany#/medi...

pgeorgi 7y ago
> France invested a lot into nuclear energy and no government since then would dare to throw such a huge industry (2500 companies, 222 000 jobs) into the trash. I don't think it was the case with other European countries. Germany all but killed off an industry of 80000 jobs (at the time) in the blink of an eye: photovoltaics. One other main difference is that having your own nuclear industry is also important for countries aiming for (or having) nuclear deterrence power, like France (and unlike Germany which merely hosts US nukes).
- Faark 7y ago
  Could you elaborate on how Germany did kill of the photovoltaics industry? Since this seems different than I remember. Solar panel production in Germany mostly died because it couldn't be price competitive with those from China. Installations went down due to reduced subsidies, apparently as an reaction to more than expected solar being installed [0]. I have a hard time calling that "killing of an industry". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renewable_Energy_Sources_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renewable_Energy_Source...
  - pgeorgi 7y ago
    > Installations went down due to reduced subsidies, apparently as an reaction to more than expected solar being installed [0]. I have a hard time calling that "killing of an industry". "So we kickstarted an industry that created 80000 jobs by subsidizing it, and now we noticed that subsidies actually cost money, so let's turn off the faucet" is what I call a killing. One of the issues in German politics is that politicians are easily scared of their own courage, instead of doubling down on it (and, in this case, help drive costs down for Germany-made PV through more industrialized and scaled-up production, thereby solving the subsidy problem while propping up an industry instead of leaving it for dead). It's especially annoying to me because one of the "arguments" in favor of keeping coal alive is that there are 20000 jobs to protect in that industry (and for much more money than it would cost to give those 20000 folks their wage + social security/insurance, no questions asked, until their retirement age, which makes me think that's all just a ruse).

pjc50 7y ago

Dirigisme. It's long been a more centrally planned country with a greater propensity for big state technology projects. The Green movement does not seem strong in France, but I'm not sure why.

fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
> The Green movement does not seem strong in France, but I'm not sure why. I have a theory. The French people like the American people put a great deal of value on liberty. Most of the purposed changes made by green activists involve ratcheting up state control the citizen's daily life and as a result are unpopular.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  So, "people" build nuclear reactors in their "daily life"? Sorry for impinging in your "personal liberty" to place me at risk of a nuclear holocaust. Must be my authoritarian statist tendencies.
  - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement For more background
    - einpoklum 7y ago
      How does this relate to nuclear reactors? I do realize how Macro used environmental concerns as an excuse to burden poorer people in peripheral areas with more taxes (rather than, say, taxing the rich and helping to finance hybrid or lower-emission, fuel-efficient vehicles for people in the countryside).
      - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
        The reason they are wearing the yellow vests are because some government official who knows better than the population decided that everyone must carry two of them in their cars at all times. Similarly they also decided to raise fuel taxes (cars are required for rural life) and subsidize public transport (used in urban areas). The French are also pragmatic and have seen the failure of the German green energy model, why on earth would they want to do that?

pgeorgi 7y ago

Unlike Germans, the French (thanks to their increased distance) don't have to check their wild mushrooms or boar for radioactive residues to this day due to Chernobyl: https://www.bfs.de/DE/themen/ion/umwelt/lebensmittel/pilze-wildbret/pilze-wildbret.html https://www.bfs.de/DE/themen/ion/umwelt/lebensmittel/pilze-w...