8 ms·

I am a former Yelp engineer who worked on the review filter and had full access to Production. There is nothing in the code or infrastructure that allows sales

I am a former Yelp engineer who worked on the review filter and had full access to Production. There is nothing in the code or infrastructure that allows sales to filter reviews. End of story. Any other position is for your own entertainment. Users can and will be creative on the site. Making fake accounts in order to mislead others is not a creative practice that aligns well with typical users of Yelp.

smoknib 7y ago
Right ...
thrwway190609 7y ago
by what mechanism are genuine and well-written 5-star reviews removed if owners refuse to pay Yelp, in your opinion?
- yoz-y 7y ago
  Is there any proof that they are actually removed? How many genuine and well-written 1-star reviews are removed alongside them? I enjoyed the story but policing user content is hard.
  - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
    If I was Yelp and acting in good faith that data would already be public
- true_tuna 7y ago
  There’s a thing called yelp sort. It’s on by default. They refuse to say how it works so it can work any way they like. The sales person marks the restaurant as ”owner didn’t pay” the top reviews get removed from yelp sort and the star calculation. The negative reviews get prioritized, the top positive reviews get ignored, hidden or just plain buried. The business goes from four and a half stars to three and a half stars. (I’m sure the actual name of the flag more deniable) Business drops noticeably. Sales person calls back a week later. This practice has been documented at least five times in the press. Yelp is a know extortionist company. I’d love to see a hactivist or disgruntled sales person publish the code or screen shots.
zenexer 7y ago
Does it really matter? All that matters is what we perceive: from the perspective of both consumers and small business owners, Yelp looks like the bad guy--and that's probably only going to get worse. Nobody is ever going to be satisfied with their decisions. Imagine if they allowed total anarchy and didn't police any of the reviews. Small business owners and consumers would be upset about all the fake reviews. Yelp claims they attempt to filter out these reviews; opponents claim they either go too far or filter as a form of extortion. Who am I, as a consumer, to trust here? My only solution is to avoid using Yelp: then I don't have to worry about either of these problems. If I'm traveling, I ask the locals where they like to eat. I'd argue that Yelp's whole business model is flawed; it doesn't scale for this very reason. No matter which path they take, it's going to be a PR nightmare. Unless they're able to both avoid filtering and disincentive fake reviews, somebody's going to be unhappy (and vocal).
- felipelemos 7y ago
  > Does it really matter? All that matters is what we perceive [...] Right on point. Right now we can only trust Yelp words, and the way their software behave it's far from transparent. And it gives exactly the opposite impression. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion"
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  It definitely matters. 'Fake reviews' or 'modifying display' in an uncsrupulous manner are essentially unethical and breach the nature of the system. But in the end the real issue is I think that reviews by random people don't help that much at all. We only need basic review by some competent person and more than anything: map, address, phone number!
- xyelperTTFs 7y ago
  >Does it really matter? All that matters is what we perceive: from the perspective of both consumers and small business owners, Yelp looks like the bad guy nope! you don’t need to believe the truth. a lot of people don’t. but the hacker news community tends to like to surface technical truths even when they defy popular sentiment.
tyingq 7y ago
Salespeople, though, whether for Yelp or anywhere else...are generally motivated and creative. I'd be surprised if none of them ever used their own friends, family, or fake accounts to punish reluctant sales leads. You don't need admin access to screw with people on Yelp.
- xyelperTTFs 7y ago
  Yes, from time to time people use their friends and connections to write fake reviews. And those people get caught.
jessaustin 7y ago
Why should we believe a greenbean account saying this? Why does anyone have "full access to Production", whatever that is? Yelp does health care stuff too; sounds like a HIPAA violation...
mikeash 7y ago
I’m sure they also have no mechanism to lie about their tactics on social media sites like HN.
tablethnuser 7y ago
Sales people don't need special access to write a fake review that they know will slip past the filters. Since they work with the people who design the filter rules and know them better than the public.
gvhst 7y ago
Have you gone through the entire codebase in great detail? If I wanted to engage in these clandestine hard bargaining tactics I'd purposely obfuscate that portion of the code / infrastructure, only revealing it to those senior enough to be trusted.
alpaca128 7y ago
That's not the only way Yelp can mess with your business though, as e.g. Louis Rossmann's case showed. Yelp sent him internal details about a friend's business just because Louis told them the advertising deal didn't help his friend. Then after he published this he got threatening phone calls and negative fake reviews. > Making fake accounts in order to mislead others is not a creative practice that aligns well with typical users of Yelp. Which only matters if typical users of Yelp can tell it's fake.
- dbtx 7y ago
  To be fair, that wasn't Yelp-- it was a Yelp salesperson who was fired the next day. (edit: OK what difference does it make, but anyway "at least" they didn't stand by that person or their mistake) The "threatening phone call"-- I don't remember Rossmann actually referring to it that way-- wasn't from Yelp, it was from a law firm where someone in the (former) salesperson's family is apparently a partner. The fake reviews weren't from Yelp, they were just thinly veiled revenge from that person's friends who were not Yelp employees but 'elite' reviewers (whatever that means, TFA implies Yelp Eliters are an unpleasant bunch). Rossmann's conclusion was that this probably isn't anything that Yelp secretly condones or instructs, but they declare their expectations, and their people will succeed by whatever means necessary. Obviously that doesn't include doxxing other businesses who already pay for advertising. :facepalm: I can take the revenge bit at face value, though it would be hilarious if Yelp really was playing everyone who couldn't believe that a company would actually encourage that. They made it possible at least, fertile ground, etc. Disclaimer: I really don't care about Yelp. At all. I don't know, I wasn't there, I didn't do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hhL15yJUnI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hhL15yJUnI
CalChris 7y ago
Negative reviews in Yelp can be removed. That is what the flag is for. So the review removal infrastructure is in place. I had a favorite sushi restaurant who would get the shakedown calls from Yelp sales. I was a regular and I remember the Mom+Pop owners complaining about the shakedowns. But what Yelp does is apparently legal.
- ViViDboarder 7y ago
  The flag is to report reviews that violate a policy, not bad reviews. I’ve reported reviews in the past that stayed up.
  - gnicholas 7y ago
    Yeah I've reported reviews before because they were clearly purchased by the business (which was nose-diving and the real reviews showed it). Yelp didn't pull the reviews because they couldn't prove that they were by people who are related to the business owners. They were all fresh accounts with no other activity, and all used the same style. Silly that yelp tags real reviews as fake but doesn't yank the truly bogus reviews.
xiphias2 7y ago
Maybe you shouldn't use a fresh HN account if you want us to believe you.
mharroun 7y ago
Yes Yes without filter code theirs no way to remove some piece of data from a website.... such as: delete from reviews where id = ?
x0x0 7y ago
Which you're boldly claiming... oh wait, anonymously.
elil17 7y ago
Damn, really trust this coming from a brand new account called “xyelperTTFs”
- xyelperTTFs 7y ago
  part of the username is derived from the now-defunct password for pushing updates to the website.
forgottenpass 7y ago
> There is nothing in the code or infrastructure that allows sales to filter reviews. That's sufficiently weasel-worded to mean nothing.

smoknib 7y ago

Right ...

thrwway190609 7y ago

by what mechanism are genuine and well-written 5-star reviews removed if owners refuse to pay Yelp, in your opinion?

yoz-y 7y ago
Is there any proof that they are actually removed? How many genuine and well-written 1-star reviews are removed alongside them? I enjoyed the story but policing user content is hard.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
  If I was Yelp and acting in good faith that data would already be public
true_tuna 7y ago
There’s a thing called yelp sort. It’s on by default. They refuse to say how it works so it can work any way they like. The sales person marks the restaurant as ”owner didn’t pay” the top reviews get removed from yelp sort and the star calculation. The negative reviews get prioritized, the top positive reviews get ignored, hidden or just plain buried. The business goes from four and a half stars to three and a half stars. (I’m sure the actual name of the flag more deniable) Business drops noticeably. Sales person calls back a week later. This practice has been documented at least five times in the press. Yelp is a know extortionist company. I’d love to see a hactivist or disgruntled sales person publish the code or screen shots.

zenexer 7y ago

Does it really matter? All that matters is what we perceive: from the perspective of both consumers and small business owners, Yelp looks like the bad guy--and that's probably only going to get worse. Nobody is ever going to be satisfied with their decisions. Imagine if they allowed total anarchy and didn't police any of the reviews. Small business owners and consumers would be upset about all the fake reviews. Yelp claims they attempt to filter out these reviews; opponents claim they either go too far or filter as a form of extortion. Who am I, as a consumer, to trust here? My only solution is to avoid using Yelp: then I don't have to worry about either of these problems. If I'm traveling, I ask the locals where they like to eat. I'd argue that Yelp's whole business model is flawed; it doesn't scale for this very reason. No matter which path they take, it's going to be a PR nightmare. Unless they're able to both avoid filtering and disincentive fake reviews, somebody's going to be unhappy (and vocal).

felipelemos 7y ago
> Does it really matter? All that matters is what we perceive [...] Right on point. Right now we can only trust Yelp words, and the way their software behave it's far from transparent. And it gives exactly the opposite impression. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion"
sonnyblarney 7y ago
It definitely matters. 'Fake reviews' or 'modifying display' in an uncsrupulous manner are essentially unethical and breach the nature of the system. But in the end the real issue is I think that reviews by random people don't help that much at all. We only need basic review by some competent person and more than anything: map, address, phone number!
xyelperTTFs 7y ago
>Does it really matter? All that matters is what we perceive: from the perspective of both consumers and small business owners, Yelp looks like the bad guy nope! you don’t need to believe the truth. a lot of people don’t. but the hacker news community tends to like to surface technical truths even when they defy popular sentiment.

tyingq 7y ago

Salespeople, though, whether for Yelp or anywhere else...are generally motivated and creative. I'd be surprised if none of them ever used their own friends, family, or fake accounts to punish reluctant sales leads. You don't need admin access to screw with people on Yelp.

xyelperTTFs 7y ago
Yes, from time to time people use their friends and connections to write fake reviews. And those people get caught.

jessaustin 7y ago

Why should we believe a greenbean account saying this? Why does anyone have "full access to Production", whatever that is? Yelp does health care stuff too; sounds like a HIPAA violation...

mikeash 7y ago

I’m sure they also have no mechanism to lie about their tactics on social media sites like HN.

tablethnuser 7y ago

Sales people don't need special access to write a fake review that they know will slip past the filters. Since they work with the people who design the filter rules and know them better than the public.

gvhst 7y ago

Have you gone through the entire codebase in great detail? If I wanted to engage in these clandestine hard bargaining tactics I'd purposely obfuscate that portion of the code / infrastructure, only revealing it to those senior enough to be trusted.

alpaca128 7y ago

That's not the only way Yelp can mess with your business though, as e.g. Louis Rossmann's case showed. Yelp sent him internal details about a friend's business just because Louis told them the advertising deal didn't help his friend. Then after he published this he got threatening phone calls and negative fake reviews. > Making fake accounts in order to mislead others is not a creative practice that aligns well with typical users of Yelp. Which only matters if typical users of Yelp can tell it's fake.

dbtx 7y ago
To be fair, that wasn't Yelp-- it was a Yelp salesperson who was fired the next day. (edit: OK what difference does it make, but anyway "at least" they didn't stand by that person or their mistake) The "threatening phone call"-- I don't remember Rossmann actually referring to it that way-- wasn't from Yelp, it was from a law firm where someone in the (former) salesperson's family is apparently a partner. The fake reviews weren't from Yelp, they were just thinly veiled revenge from that person's friends who were not Yelp employees but 'elite' reviewers (whatever that means, TFA implies Yelp Eliters are an unpleasant bunch). Rossmann's conclusion was that this probably isn't anything that Yelp secretly condones or instructs, but they declare their expectations, and their people will succeed by whatever means necessary. Obviously that doesn't include doxxing other businesses who already pay for advertising. :facepalm: I can take the revenge bit at face value, though it would be hilarious if Yelp really was playing everyone who couldn't believe that a company would actually encourage that. They made it possible at least, fertile ground, etc. Disclaimer: I really don't care about Yelp. At all. I don't know, I wasn't there, I didn't do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hhL15yJUnI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hhL15yJUnI

CalChris 7y ago

Negative reviews in Yelp can be removed. That is what the flag is for. So the review removal infrastructure is in place. I had a favorite sushi restaurant who would get the shakedown calls from Yelp sales. I was a regular and I remember the Mom+Pop owners complaining about the shakedowns. But what Yelp does is apparently legal.

ViViDboarder 7y ago
The flag is to report reviews that violate a policy, not bad reviews. I’ve reported reviews in the past that stayed up.
- gnicholas 7y ago
  Yeah I've reported reviews before because they were clearly purchased by the business (which was nose-diving and the real reviews showed it). Yelp didn't pull the reviews because they couldn't prove that they were by people who are related to the business owners. They were all fresh accounts with no other activity, and all used the same style. Silly that yelp tags real reviews as fake but doesn't yank the truly bogus reviews.

xiphias2 7y ago

Maybe you shouldn't use a fresh HN account if you want us to believe you.

mharroun 7y ago

Yes Yes without filter code theirs no way to remove some piece of data from a website.... such as: delete from reviews where id = ?

x0x0 7y ago

Which you're boldly claiming... oh wait, anonymously.

elil17 7y ago

Damn, really trust this coming from a brand new account called “xyelperTTFs”

xyelperTTFs 7y ago
part of the username is derived from the now-defunct password for pushing updates to the website.

forgottenpass 7y ago

> There is nothing in the code or infrastructure that allows sales to filter reviews. That's sufficiently weasel-worded to mean nothing.