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40+ years of generating clean CO2-free energy. Designed with slide rules and drafting tables. An unbelievable accomplishment!

yes_man 7y ago
Mining, refining and delivering uranium rests on fossil fuel powered operations. Building new nuclear plants is not carbon free either. Nuclear energy industry probably nets less carbon emissions per unit of energy than coal or natural gas industries. Yet it's factually incorrect to call it CO2 free. Solar energy industry is often criticised of similar greenwashing, when the initial CO2 cost of creating a solar panel and delivering it from Asia to Europe or North America can have great CO2 burden
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  That's the sunk cost fallacy though. Some particular nuclear plant was constructed by hauling ore and concrete with diesel trucks. What happens when we switch to electric trucks, with nuclear or solar generated electricity? By contrast, how do you reduce the CO2 output of coal? Do the same thing and replace the electricity the plant generates with nuclear and solar?
- mikeash 7y ago
  Is that really the right way to count it? A lot of the CO2 for a solar panel is because the factory is connected to a dirty grid. If the factory was connected to a clean grid this would go away, and it’s involved in making this happen. Should that be charged to the coal and gas industry instead? For nuclear, CO2 emitted by the concrete should obviously be counted. But uranium mining?
- jdavis703 7y ago
  That’s like saying riding a bike isn’t carbon free because the biker relies on food farmed using CO2-based fuels and the rider breathes out CO2.
  - krastanov 7y ago
    But this actually matters! While your example makes it sound indeed silly, full "life-cycle assessments" and counting externalities matters. Permit me to take your example to an even more farcical end: imagine there was a correlation between bikers eating beef and bus commuter being vegetarians - in such a silly world the bus commuters would probably be much greener even though the bus is a gas guzzler. The problem is that with nuclear these analyses are really complicated, and should not be dismissed out of hand. I do believe that nuclear energy is very important in the fight against global warming, but such dismissals do not help convince people of it.
    - junipertea 7y ago
      People use the same argument for solar and wind energy; however the goal is for future panels/uranium to be created/mined using non-coal energy
    - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
      A more real world comparison is an electric bike commute. If the extra power for a cycle commute comes from human food then it's entirely possible that the extra carbon cost of making and charging the battery are a worthwhile investment to help save carbon footprint even though the bike is now heavier. As you say, vegan vs carnivore (and red vs other meats) would be a factor just as whether the electric power comes from renewable or fossil power. And to get super complicated you could then weigh the cost of healthcare if the rider is using less physical exertion.
    - wool_gather 7y ago
      You're not wrong, but mind the point from manfredo about double-counting, too. I.e., the bicycle is not _itself_ a source of CO2 as the bus is, so if you cownt the beefeaters' full carbon hoofprint, you have to subtract that elsewhere in the overall assessment.
    - dTal 7y ago
      You say that would be silly, but there are undoubtedly correlations between diet and overall athleticism. Whether beef-eating is positively or negatively correlated with bicycle commuting is difficult to guess, but it would be surprising if there were no correlation.
- manfredo 7y ago
  Sure, the construction of the plant and acquisition of nuclear fuel uses CO2. The generation of nuclear power itself does not. I'm willing to be that CO2 emitted per megawatt of nuclear power is a fraction of that of coal or gas plants. And the gasoline used to run the mining vehicles and transport vehicles are already counted in other carbon emission categories - namely transportation. So if you included them in the power generation emissions estimate you're likely double counting them.
layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
>CO2-free energy But this reactor uses tons of CO2 as coolant! /s
einpoklum 7y ago
1. And nuclear waste is nothing to you? Not everything is about CO_2 you know. 2. It is indeed a significant accomplishment. Let's keep it that way by ceasing operation on time and not risk tarring the accomplishment with a reactor failure.
- ZanyProgrammer 7y ago
  Literally everything is about CO2. It'll destroy civilization much faster than nuclear waste.
  - montalbano 7y ago
    What about methane? [Its] impact is 34 times greater than CO2 over a 100-year period https://unfccc.int/news/new-methane-signs-underline-urgency-to-reverse-emissions https://unfccc.int/news/new-methane-signs-underline-urgency-...
    - llao 7y ago
      That's another thing destroying civilization much faster than nuclear waste. Not sure why you mention it in this thread on nuclear waste.
      - montalbano 7y ago
        I was responding to the previous comment which said that "Literally everything is about CO2."
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - doomglobe 7y ago
    If we do make it over that hurdle, and the many other imminent threats our civilization faces, nuclear fuel is the only means we have (with current technology) of sustaining interstellar travel. Other fuels are too bulky and solar won't work when we get a certain distance from our star. I mean, CO2 and the lies surrounding it are probably going to kill us, and if that doesn't, nuclear war will, and if we manage to muster the level of cooperation and honesty needed to survive these issues, we still face self replicating nanite disasters, murderous omniscient AI disasters, anything you can imagine could kill us before we manage to spread our society into the stars. But if we do want to perform any meaningful operations in deep space, nuclear fuel conservation will be of the utmost importance. Surviving the wealthy few who control these resources and want to use them will be far harder than any other task of cooperation we are faced with.

yes_man 7y ago

Mining, refining and delivering uranium rests on fossil fuel powered operations. Building new nuclear plants is not carbon free either. Nuclear energy industry probably nets less carbon emissions per unit of energy than coal or natural gas industries. Yet it's factually incorrect to call it CO2 free. Solar energy industry is often criticised of similar greenwashing, when the initial CO2 cost of creating a solar panel and delivering it from Asia to Europe or North America can have great CO2 burden

AnthonyMouse 7y ago
That's the sunk cost fallacy though. Some particular nuclear plant was constructed by hauling ore and concrete with diesel trucks. What happens when we switch to electric trucks, with nuclear or solar generated electricity? By contrast, how do you reduce the CO2 output of coal? Do the same thing and replace the electricity the plant generates with nuclear and solar?
mikeash 7y ago
Is that really the right way to count it? A lot of the CO2 for a solar panel is because the factory is connected to a dirty grid. If the factory was connected to a clean grid this would go away, and it’s involved in making this happen. Should that be charged to the coal and gas industry instead? For nuclear, CO2 emitted by the concrete should obviously be counted. But uranium mining?
jdavis703 7y ago
That’s like saying riding a bike isn’t carbon free because the biker relies on food farmed using CO2-based fuels and the rider breathes out CO2.
- krastanov 7y ago
  But this actually matters! While your example makes it sound indeed silly, full "life-cycle assessments" and counting externalities matters. Permit me to take your example to an even more farcical end: imagine there was a correlation between bikers eating beef and bus commuter being vegetarians - in such a silly world the bus commuters would probably be much greener even though the bus is a gas guzzler. The problem is that with nuclear these analyses are really complicated, and should not be dismissed out of hand. I do believe that nuclear energy is very important in the fight against global warming, but such dismissals do not help convince people of it.
  - junipertea 7y ago
    People use the same argument for solar and wind energy; however the goal is for future panels/uranium to be created/mined using non-coal energy
  - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
    A more real world comparison is an electric bike commute. If the extra power for a cycle commute comes from human food then it's entirely possible that the extra carbon cost of making and charging the battery are a worthwhile investment to help save carbon footprint even though the bike is now heavier. As you say, vegan vs carnivore (and red vs other meats) would be a factor just as whether the electric power comes from renewable or fossil power. And to get super complicated you could then weigh the cost of healthcare if the rider is using less physical exertion.
  - wool_gather 7y ago
    You're not wrong, but mind the point from manfredo about double-counting, too. I.e., the bicycle is not _itself_ a source of CO2 as the bus is, so if you cownt the beefeaters' full carbon hoofprint, you have to subtract that elsewhere in the overall assessment.
  - dTal 7y ago
    You say that would be silly, but there are undoubtedly correlations between diet and overall athleticism. Whether beef-eating is positively or negatively correlated with bicycle commuting is difficult to guess, but it would be surprising if there were no correlation.
manfredo 7y ago
Sure, the construction of the plant and acquisition of nuclear fuel uses CO2. The generation of nuclear power itself does not. I'm willing to be that CO2 emitted per megawatt of nuclear power is a fraction of that of coal or gas plants. And the gasoline used to run the mining vehicles and transport vehicles are already counted in other carbon emission categories - namely transportation. So if you included them in the power generation emissions estimate you're likely double counting them.

layoutIfNeeded 7y ago

>CO2-free energy But this reactor uses tons of CO2 as coolant! /s

einpoklum 7y ago

1. And nuclear waste is nothing to you? Not everything is about CO_2 you know. 2. It is indeed a significant accomplishment. Let's keep it that way by ceasing operation on time and not risk tarring the accomplishment with a reactor failure.

ZanyProgrammer 7y ago
Literally everything is about CO2. It'll destroy civilization much faster than nuclear waste.
- montalbano 7y ago
  What about methane? [Its] impact is 34 times greater than CO2 over a 100-year period https://unfccc.int/news/new-methane-signs-underline-urgency-to-reverse-emissions https://unfccc.int/news/new-methane-signs-underline-urgency-...
  - llao 7y ago
    That's another thing destroying civilization much faster than nuclear waste. Not sure why you mention it in this thread on nuclear waste.
    - montalbano 7y ago
      I was responding to the previous comment which said that "Literally everything is about CO2."
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- doomglobe 7y ago
  If we do make it over that hurdle, and the many other imminent threats our civilization faces, nuclear fuel is the only means we have (with current technology) of sustaining interstellar travel. Other fuels are too bulky and solar won't work when we get a certain distance from our star. I mean, CO2 and the lies surrounding it are probably going to kill us, and if that doesn't, nuclear war will, and if we manage to muster the level of cooperation and honesty needed to survive these issues, we still face self replicating nanite disasters, murderous omniscient AI disasters, anything you can imagine could kill us before we manage to spread our society into the stars. But if we do want to perform any meaningful operations in deep space, nuclear fuel conservation will be of the utmost importance. Surviving the wealthy few who control these resources and want to use them will be far harder than any other task of cooperation we are faced with.