7 ms·

Mounting the camera behind the screen could create eye-contact in video chats. That's the biggest difference between video chat and face-to-face conversations,

by petra 7y ago

Mounting the camera behind the screen could create eye-contact in video chats. That's the biggest difference between video chat and face-to-face conversations, and it creates low trust. And while xiaomi isn't the first to achieve that[1], xiaomi is a consumer company, and their price point is very affordable. So i hope they target this problem. they could be very successful, with good implications(environmental, social), hopefully. [1]https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/dve-launches-camera-embedded-eye-contact-telepresence-display-powered-by-microsoft-skype--vidyo--google--hangouts--zoom--cisco--polycom--and-blue-jeans-300351566.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/dve-launches-camera...

iguy 7y ago
Does the screen have to be off where the camera is located? I haven't dug deep but the few videos I saw showed a black bar covering the camera while it was in use (and bright colors when not).
- ginko 7y ago
  I guess depending on how fast the camera is they could turn off the screen for a fraction of a second in between frames to take a picture. Not sure if that's feasible atm though.
  - phire 7y ago
    That could actually work. They already make low persistence OLED displays for use in VR, where the screen stays black for most of the frame and a bright bar of image rolls down the screen. The iPhone can already operate in this mode. I assume there is a display brightness penalty, but the image quality from the camera should be fine as long as it gets more than half the frame collecting light.
  - baybal2 7y ago
    I think it's quite real with OLED. But even with screen on, if you use a specialised CCD with huge dynamic range, I think it's doable.
avian 7y ago
> Eye-contact in video chats. That's the biggest difference between video chat and face-to-face conversations This issue is pretty far down the list IMHO. Above it are fixing the obligatory 5 minutes of "Can you hear me? I can't hear you" before the actual conversation starts. Face-to-face conversations also lack "Please mute your mic when you're not talking because the background noise is annoying". "Did you forget you're muted?". "Can you repeat that, I can't understand you". "The video/sound is cutting out". "Where's this echo coming from?". "Please say something on your end". "What's that noise?". "Please use a headset next time". "Sorry, the call dropped out". "Let me call you again, maybe this will fix the issue". etc. etc. Video chat is one of the great unsolved problems of computing. Yes, camera location is there as well - especially on Dell laptops that for some reason have it looking up from below into your chin. But that is really one of the lesser issues as far as my experience goes.
- joshspankit 7y ago
  Sounds like you’re limiting your view to work-related calls. If I could have real eye contact on personal calls, it would make a huge difference. My current technique of looking just below the camera already makes a huge difference, and it’s only a hack to make it seem like eye contact for the other person.
  - Zenbit_UX 7y ago
    You would have to look directly into the camera, no? Why just below?
    - tazard 7y ago
      I would guess because if you always looked directly into the camera, it would be harder to watch the video/see the other person at the same time.
      - Zenst 7y ago
        It is natural to look at the person and eye contact when talking to them. Hence we don't look at the camera, though I'm sure some people can and do this.
Lxr 7y ago
> it creates low trust Try looking into the camera when you speak rather than the screen.
- ubercow13 7y ago
  Then they'll trust you, but you won't trust them
- mattlondon 7y ago
  +1 I do this when doing 1-to-1 or 1-to-many calls. I look at the lens at the top of my laptop or the one in the meeting room when I am talking. It means I can't see what others are doing and feels kinda weird just staring at a lens when talking, but in a world of people who don't make eye contact like this on video calls, I think it has a good amount of impact/gravitas.
needle0 7y ago
Wouldn't that require the camera to be located nearer to the middle of the screen, where the on-screen eyes of the other party would be? I wouldn't mind a slightly perceptible camera dot at the top of the screen, but if it was in the middle it might appear pretty conspicuous.
- sandworm101 7y ago
  It will need to move. On anything bigger than a phone, the video chat may be in an off-center window. And i guess multi-window group chats are a problem too. A great solution for a very limited problem.
  - baybal2 7y ago
    well, that will require making a hole in the battery What we talk in the industry as a new de facto standard is called "1B 1C layout" — a layout with 1 board and one battery cell edge to edge. A maximum by how much you can move the camera is determined by how much you are ready to sacrifice battery size.
walterbell 7y ago
Filmmaker Errol Morris adapted a teleprompter to achieve eye contact with interview subjects. The screen is horizontal, below and in front of the camera, an inclined 2-way mirror moves the screen image in front of the camera. http://www.whiterabbitdesigncompany.com/uploads/1/4/1/3/14130356/interrotron_w_render2a.pdf http://www.whiterabbitdesigncompany.com/uploads/1/4/1/3/1413... His non-patented "Interrotron" inspired the patented "Eyedirect". Other variations may be possible for small batch manufacturing.
Zenst 7y ago
Yes, eye-contact in video chats is very important. The way this was done in the early days [circa late 1990's and early 2k](probably still today in more elaborate ways) in video conferencing was the use of a one way mirror at an angle, camera behind mirror and below the mirror the display screen projecting up. This presented the display and the camera at the same level as the eye level of those upon the display, making for a much more comfortable engagement. By that, have a chat with somebody and look at one of their eyebrows, this makes them uncomfortable and increases the number of times they blink as well. The difference of eye-level contact in video conferencing/chats makes the experience and interaction around the subject and not limited by the technology. EDIT - the same trick for eye-level camera positioning is used for some autocue setups in Television studios.
ithkuil 7y ago
You might find this interesting https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1521517 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1521517
kgwxd 7y ago
I don't think it would accurately recreate eye contact. Maybe some kind of uncanny valley like version of it, which seems worse than what we have.
- crazygringo 7y ago
  It actually does, if you get a chance to use it (I have). Nothing uncanny about it whatsoever. Keeping the person's eyes roughly around the camera area is achieved by moving/zooming the video on your screen to the appropriate spot. People don't usually move their heads that much, and when they do you can manually or automatically readjust as required.
chungleong 7y ago
A software fix seems more realistic. The latest smartphones packed enough AI circuitry to be able to infer how an image should look if you were staring into the camera.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  > Lack of trust due to lack of eye contact > Let's use fake eyes instead Not sure that works out there..
daodedickinson 7y ago
How do I get to where I and someone else can trust each other and spend time in person? I am never going to want to perform in front of a camera. I refuse.
Theodores 7y ago
It also has the eye-contact with one's self aspect, think of people who use their phones for doing their makeup as well as doing selfies. A lot more of this goes on than video conferencing. Culturally the eye contact thing is not actually universal, there are understandings that the lack of eye contact is due to the video conferencing setup. So maybe the personal vanity selfie taking use case is what wins it here.

by petra 7y ago

iguy 7y ago

Does the screen have to be off where the camera is located? I haven't dug deep but the few videos I saw showed a black bar covering the camera while it was in use (and bright colors when not).

ginko 7y ago
I guess depending on how fast the camera is they could turn off the screen for a fraction of a second in between frames to take a picture. Not sure if that's feasible atm though.
- phire 7y ago
  That could actually work. They already make low persistence OLED displays for use in VR, where the screen stays black for most of the frame and a bright bar of image rolls down the screen. The iPhone can already operate in this mode. I assume there is a display brightness penalty, but the image quality from the camera should be fine as long as it gets more than half the frame collecting light.
- baybal2 7y ago
  I think it's quite real with OLED. But even with screen on, if you use a specialised CCD with huge dynamic range, I think it's doable.

avian 7y ago

> Eye-contact in video chats. That's the biggest difference between video chat and face-to-face conversations This issue is pretty far down the list IMHO. Above it are fixing the obligatory 5 minutes of "Can you hear me? I can't hear you" before the actual conversation starts. Face-to-face conversations also lack "Please mute your mic when you're not talking because the background noise is annoying". "Did you forget you're muted?". "Can you repeat that, I can't understand you". "The video/sound is cutting out". "Where's this echo coming from?". "Please say something on your end". "What's that noise?". "Please use a headset next time". "Sorry, the call dropped out". "Let me call you again, maybe this will fix the issue". etc. etc. Video chat is one of the great unsolved problems of computing. Yes, camera location is there as well - especially on Dell laptops that for some reason have it looking up from below into your chin. But that is really one of the lesser issues as far as my experience goes.

joshspankit 7y ago
Sounds like you’re limiting your view to work-related calls. If I could have real eye contact on personal calls, it would make a huge difference. My current technique of looking just below the camera already makes a huge difference, and it’s only a hack to make it seem like eye contact for the other person.
- Zenbit_UX 7y ago
  You would have to look directly into the camera, no? Why just below?
  - tazard 7y ago
    I would guess because if you always looked directly into the camera, it would be harder to watch the video/see the other person at the same time.
    - Zenst 7y ago
      It is natural to look at the person and eye contact when talking to them. Hence we don't look at the camera, though I'm sure some people can and do this.

Lxr 7y ago

> it creates low trust Try looking into the camera when you speak rather than the screen.

ubercow13 7y ago
Then they'll trust you, but you won't trust them
mattlondon 7y ago
+1 I do this when doing 1-to-1 or 1-to-many calls. I look at the lens at the top of my laptop or the one in the meeting room when I am talking. It means I can't see what others are doing and feels kinda weird just staring at a lens when talking, but in a world of people who don't make eye contact like this on video calls, I think it has a good amount of impact/gravitas.

needle0 7y ago

Wouldn't that require the camera to be located nearer to the middle of the screen, where the on-screen eyes of the other party would be? I wouldn't mind a slightly perceptible camera dot at the top of the screen, but if it was in the middle it might appear pretty conspicuous.

sandworm101 7y ago
It will need to move. On anything bigger than a phone, the video chat may be in an off-center window. And i guess multi-window group chats are a problem too. A great solution for a very limited problem.
- baybal2 7y ago
  well, that will require making a hole in the battery What we talk in the industry as a new de facto standard is called "1B 1C layout" — a layout with 1 board and one battery cell edge to edge. A maximum by how much you can move the camera is determined by how much you are ready to sacrifice battery size.

walterbell 7y ago

Filmmaker Errol Morris adapted a teleprompter to achieve eye contact with interview subjects. The screen is horizontal, below and in front of the camera, an inclined 2-way mirror moves the screen image in front of the camera. http://www.whiterabbitdesigncompany.com/uploads/1/4/1/3/14130356/interrotron_w_render2a.pdf http://www.whiterabbitdesigncompany.com/uploads/1/4/1/3/1413... His non-patented "Interrotron" inspired the patented "Eyedirect". Other variations may be possible for small batch manufacturing.

Zenst 7y ago

Yes, eye-contact in video chats is very important. The way this was done in the early days [circa late 1990's and early 2k](probably still today in more elaborate ways) in video conferencing was the use of a one way mirror at an angle, camera behind mirror and below the mirror the display screen projecting up. This presented the display and the camera at the same level as the eye level of those upon the display, making for a much more comfortable engagement. By that, have a chat with somebody and look at one of their eyebrows, this makes them uncomfortable and increases the number of times they blink as well. The difference of eye-level contact in video conferencing/chats makes the experience and interaction around the subject and not limited by the technology. EDIT - the same trick for eye-level camera positioning is used for some autocue setups in Television studios.

ithkuil 7y ago

You might find this interesting https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1521517 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1521517

kgwxd 7y ago

I don't think it would accurately recreate eye contact. Maybe some kind of uncanny valley like version of it, which seems worse than what we have.

crazygringo 7y ago
It actually does, if you get a chance to use it (I have). Nothing uncanny about it whatsoever. Keeping the person's eyes roughly around the camera area is achieved by moving/zooming the video on your screen to the appropriate spot. People don't usually move their heads that much, and when they do you can manually or automatically readjust as required.

chungleong 7y ago

A software fix seems more realistic. The latest smartphones packed enough AI circuitry to be able to infer how an image should look if you were staring into the camera.

cameronbrown 7y ago
> Lack of trust due to lack of eye contact > Let's use fake eyes instead Not sure that works out there..

daodedickinson 7y ago

How do I get to where I and someone else can trust each other and spend time in person? I am never going to want to perform in front of a camera. I refuse.

Theodores 7y ago

It also has the eye-contact with one's self aspect, think of people who use their phones for doing their makeup as well as doing selfies. A lot more of this goes on than video conferencing. Culturally the eye contact thing is not actually universal, there are understandings that the lack of eye contact is due to the video conferencing setup. So maybe the personal vanity selfie taking use case is what wins it here.