6 ms·

Let's say the CTO said "I'm concerned the candidate won't fit in because he's not into video games or partying with coworkers or working on the weekends, all th

by _cs2017_ 7y ago

Let's say the CTO said "I'm concerned the candidate won't fit in because he's not into video games or partying with coworkers or working on the weekends, all the things that help us bond and keep a cohesive team". While not directly mentioning his age, such criteria would still make it very unlikely that the older candidate would be hired. Would you consider this to be age discrimination (from a moral perspective; let's ignore legal considerations since those are incredibly vague and convoluted)?

jacobsenscott 7y ago
Of course it is ageism. The CTO confused finding an employee with finding a fk buddy. The company is toxic, and is certainly discriminating unlawfully in multiple axis. Also, none of the things you mentioned contribute to team cohesion, they are all detrimental to it. Basically you are describing a CTO that has no idea how to CTO. We can take solace in the fact that his startup will fail hard.
- seattle_spring 7y ago
  I'm not sure working weekends and liking video games are traits of a "fk buddy."
  - pmiller2 7y ago
    You’re nitpicking and not addressing the point. Substitute “friend,” and the argument remains intact.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Would you consider this to be age discrimination (from a moral perspective; let's ignore legal considerations since those are incredibly vague and convoluted)? It's straightforward (disparate impact) age discrimination from a legal perspective. The law in this area isn't that vague and convoluted.
- mooreds 7y ago
  From the original article: > The United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit did not agree. In a ruling this year supporting CareFusion, it stated that recruiting practices that have the effect of screening out older applicants — what is known in legal terms as having a “disparate impact” — did not violate the law. I am not a lawyer, but it appears to me that the law is convoluted enough for the 7th court of appeals to offer an alternate decision.
- _cs2017_ 7y ago
  I believe this is incorrect. Disparate impact is not a violation of the US law (neither federal nor state). If the disparate impact is related to the job, it's legal. (For example, a movie studio that turns away old actors who apply to play young characters will most likely win in court, if sued.) What is reasonably related to the job, is far from clear; the rules are vague, and the previous rulings are complex and inconsistent. In addition, I didn't want to make my question specific to the US. And the laws across different countries (even the Western developed countries) are not the same.
  - yawaramin 7y ago
    Come on now. It should be perfectly clear that playing video games and beer pong with colleagues is not a requirement for a job as a software developer.
    - _cs2017_ 7y ago
      It is not a secret that some famous game studios turned away experienced software engineers simply because they didn't play video games. Expecting employees to work on weekends is even more common, and not just in the gaming industry. Please remove "partying" from my list; it was dumb of me to mention it, it only makes my example less realistic.
      - yawaramin 7y ago
        > game studios turned away experienced software engineers simply because they didn't play video games That's troubling but perhaps not a smoking gun, given the specific nature of the job. You wouldn't hire a movie director who never watched movies. > Expecting employees to work on weekends is even more common I know, and that's really unfortunate–and if the employee isn't compensated properly or at least given time off in lieu–is wage theft.

jacobsenscott 7y ago

Of course it is ageism. The CTO confused finding an employee with finding a fk buddy. The company is toxic, and is certainly discriminating unlawfully in multiple axis. Also, none of the things you mentioned contribute to team cohesion, they are all detrimental to it. Basically you are describing a CTO that has no idea how to CTO. We can take solace in the fact that his startup will fail hard.

seattle_spring 7y ago
I'm not sure working weekends and liking video games are traits of a "fk buddy."
- pmiller2 7y ago
  You’re nitpicking and not addressing the point. Substitute “friend,” and the argument remains intact.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> Would you consider this to be age discrimination (from a moral perspective; let's ignore legal considerations since those are incredibly vague and convoluted)? It's straightforward (disparate impact) age discrimination from a legal perspective. The law in this area isn't that vague and convoluted.

mooreds 7y ago
From the original article: > The United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit did not agree. In a ruling this year supporting CareFusion, it stated that recruiting practices that have the effect of screening out older applicants — what is known in legal terms as having a “disparate impact” — did not violate the law. I am not a lawyer, but it appears to me that the law is convoluted enough for the 7th court of appeals to offer an alternate decision.
_cs2017_ 7y ago
I believe this is incorrect. Disparate impact is not a violation of the US law (neither federal nor state). If the disparate impact is related to the job, it's legal. (For example, a movie studio that turns away old actors who apply to play young characters will most likely win in court, if sued.) What is reasonably related to the job, is far from clear; the rules are vague, and the previous rulings are complex and inconsistent. In addition, I didn't want to make my question specific to the US. And the laws across different countries (even the Western developed countries) are not the same.
- yawaramin 7y ago
  Come on now. It should be perfectly clear that playing video games and beer pong with colleagues is not a requirement for a job as a software developer.
  - _cs2017_ 7y ago
    It is not a secret that some famous game studios turned away experienced software engineers simply because they didn't play video games. Expecting employees to work on weekends is even more common, and not just in the gaming industry. Please remove "partying" from my list; it was dumb of me to mention it, it only makes my example less realistic.
    - yawaramin 7y ago
      > game studios turned away experienced software engineers simply because they didn't play video games That's troubling but perhaps not a smoking gun, given the specific nature of the job. You wouldn't hire a movie director who never watched movies. > Expecting employees to work on weekends is even more common I know, and that's really unfortunate–and if the employee isn't compensated properly or at least given time off in lieu–is wage theft.