4 ms·

Shocking this kind of stereotyping is not only allowed but upvoted to first place on HN.

by Leary 7y ago

walrus01 7y ago
Here's Bunnie Huang's explanation of cavalier disregard for copyright/trademark and IP law: https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 I'm sure he's biased, right?
- _ph_ 7y ago
  Not sure how I should understand your comment, but the link you posted is great. It clearly shows what a great place Shenzen is. If Silicon Valley is be the place for software startups, Shenzen is its equivalent in hardware. So much ingenuity combined with an extremely short manufacturing pipeline as described in the article. And as long as we are not talking about actual counterfeit products, I can't blame them for being inspired by known brands products. But unless we are talking acutally patented or copyrighted things, the concept of "IP" isn't as clear-cut as some company lawyers like to make it.
ganeshkrishnan 7y ago
It's a spillover from the right wing reddits. Always starts with "it's in their culture" never mind that almost all of the Chinese expats are just hard working normal humans. Their government might be effed up but it's a bit of a long jump to blame their culture
- filoleg 7y ago
  I don’t know, man. What i am about to say is anecdotal, but as someone who went through educational system (up until beginning of high school) in Russia, it was the same there. As soon as teacher left for a bathroom break in the middle of the class, there would always be a few students who spring up to the desk and search real quick for answer sheets for the upcoming exam or something like that. No one would call them out, because the students who try to find the materials were considered the righteous heroes risking being caught for the common good. After talking to my dad (who still lives there) recently, I only reinforced my opinion that it is definitely a cultural issue in Russia. I cannot speak for China specifically, but I don’t see why it cannot be the case there as well. P.S. It sucks I even feel the need to mention this, but I have zero affiliation or interest in anything even remotely right-wing.
  - m0zg 7y ago
    I also don't know, man, but that sounds so un-Russian to me, I, as a Russian myself, am having trouble believing it. It wasn't like that 25-30 years ago. Nobody would call people out in general, because in Russian culture being a snitch is one of the worst thing you can be, but nobody would go as far as to rummage through teacher's papers. Cheating was pretty rampant in other ways: people would bring cheatsheets to exams (there's no such thing as "cheatsheets allowed" exams there, and exams are often stupid hard because people keep "passing" them somehow), rip off essays, etc, but teacher's stuff was out of reach at least.
    - choonway 7y ago
      from a lecturer's perspective - It's not a problem if students pass - it's a problem if everybody gets an 'A' and there was no way to differentiate the cohort. It's a problem if too many fail - you have people retaking subjects and you don't have enough lecturers for additional classes - there are new students coming through the pipeline. Consequently, a minimum pass is usually indicative of the 'end of the road' and go get a job. Your marks are adjusted to pass. Unless you never attended classes at all or didn't hand up coursework, you are unlikely to fail. If the exams were crazy hard... that's because it was a wrong solution to the problem.
      - m0zg 7y ago
        What I meant to say, there was a bit of an arms race going on, especially in higher education. The professors and teachers knew many (if not all) students were cheating, so they adjusted the difficulty accordingly, so that, as you point out, not everyone gets an A. I don't know if it's still going on. And I did have a few professors which considered it a problem if more than half of their class passed the first time they took the exam.
        choonway 7y ago
        Such professors... have another reason for failing half the class... They have to fail a number of students so that his class size maintains the numbers to avoid unwanted attention from the administration. If let's say the normal class size was about 20, but you only get about 15 new students each semester, so you fail 5 of them (or more accounting for dropouts) to make up the numbers.
- rayiner 7y ago
  I find the “it’s their culture” thing inappropriate too. (Especially because it seems to be more a deliberate economic/political strategy.) But you’ve mentioned one of my pet peeves so I am going to weigh in. You can’t judge a country by its expats. The expats are, after all, the ones who left (or were driven out). They’re not representative. Really, there is something a little odd with them—what kind of person abandons their country and all their family ties and moves across the world? Typical people don’t do that. My dad is one of those people. He’s a by the book rule follower, and Bangladeshis typically are ... more flexible. It drove him crazy. Then when he got the chance, he packed up his family and pretty much never looked back.
  - FullyFunctional 7y ago
    You have issue with a generalist "it's their culture" and in the same breath generalize about ex-pats? Do you perhaps see a problem with that?
dnomad 7y ago
HN has gone completely off the rails. See my comment above. It's been like this for more than a year now. This sort of outright racist hate speech is now completely normal on HN and is eagerly embraced.
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  Some behaviours are normative in some places and not in others, for whatever reasons. Some are mundane, some we don't notice, some we don't care about, some we misinterpret. But 'cheating' is a problem in China which I have come to believe is factually true. Have a gander [1] Also, thousands of Chinese ex-pat students have been expelled from US schools. [2] [1] https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1974986/why-do-chinese-students-think-its-ok-cheat https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1974986... [2] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/money-wealth/article/1812115/roughly-3pc-chinese-students-us-expelled-low-grades-academic https://www.scmp.com/news/china/money-wealth/article/1812115...
  - choonway 7y ago
    why I say it is a cultural issue, is because when there are minority PRC origin students in majority Singaporean classes the PRCs tend to adapt and not try funny tricks. They longer they assimilate, the less they try. For Singaporeans it's an unholy sin to cheat at exams, (you are barred from exams for the semester, all your grades for the entire semester are invalidated, you parents will be ashamed of you, and everyone you know will unfriend you) but copying homework/assignments/plagiarism is still somewhat tolerated before university level.
  - ModernMech 7y ago
    > Also, thousands of Chinese ex-pat students have been expelled from US schools. Very hard to draw any conclusions about this... From the article: "About 8,000 Chinese students were expelled from American schools in the past year... Most were expelled because of a low grade point average (GPA)" Another source quoting the same research says: "A 54-page report released this week says that schools in the United States have expelled 1,657 Chinese since the 2012-2013 school year, mainly for “academic dishonesty or low academic performances,” but a company representative now says the number might be as high as 8,000 students. “A lot of students tend to keep silent or go back to their country,” says Andrew Chen, chief development officer at WholeRen." [1] (also, note that your source is wrong, as this is over the 3 year period from 2012 - 2015, not over the year 2015) So it's 1657 over 3 years, but "might be as high as as high as 8000" according to a company representative? And over half of that was for poor performance, not cheating. So we can say that between 800 and 4000 students were expelled for academic dishonesty over 3 years. How does that compare to the general population? Not sure, but according to these statistics, over 100,000 students were expelled in 2006 from public schools in the US. [2] They don't break this down by reason, but that's a pretty big number compared to 200 - 1300 in a year for Chinese students, especially considering the US hosts a quarter million Chinese students each year [1]. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/us-colleges-expelled-many-8000-chinese-students-3-years-337445 https://www.newsweek.com/us-colleges-expelled-many-8000-chin... [2] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_169.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_169.asp
z2 7y ago
I used to be angry at these posts, but now I'm just sad. Despite the GP then saying it's 'PRC Chinese' vs 'Singaporean Chinese,' it's still unclear if this is a broad swipe at an ethnic group, a nation's people, or their culture at large. It's just easy to vent unsubstantiated anger when it's the popular thing to do.
rhizome 7y ago
Are they doing the stereotyping, or are they identifying instances of it? That is, people not avoiding the stereotype. I doubt it's a mystery, I know the stereotypes of white people and white men, and I strive to counteract them. As far as I know it's the only way to fight stereotypes.
- deroisas2y 7y ago
  Let’s apply the Jewish Litmus Test to this. If I were to identify instances of Jewish crime, and then say, “it’s their culture,” would that be racist?
scoot_718 7y ago
It's so rife in the academic world that it goes beyond stereotype.

Shocking this kind of stereotyping is not only allowed but upvoted to first place on HN.

by Leary 7y ago

Shocking this kind of stereotyping is not only allowed but upvoted to first place on HN.

Here's Bunnie Huang's explanation of cavalier disregard for copyright/trademark and IP law: https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=284 I'm sure he's biased, right?

_ph_ 7y ago
Not sure how I should understand your comment, but the link you posted is great. It clearly shows what a great place Shenzen is. If Silicon Valley is be the place for software startups, Shenzen is its equivalent in hardware. So much ingenuity combined with an extremely short manufacturing pipeline as described in the article. And as long as we are not talking about actual counterfeit products, I can't blame them for being inspired by known brands products. But unless we are talking acutally patented or copyrighted things, the concept of "IP" isn't as clear-cut as some company lawyers like to make it.

ganeshkrishnan 7y ago

It's a spillover from the right wing reddits. Always starts with "it's in their culture" never mind that almost all of the Chinese expats are just hard working normal humans. Their government might be effed up but it's a bit of a long jump to blame their culture

filoleg 7y ago
I don’t know, man. What i am about to say is anecdotal, but as someone who went through educational system (up until beginning of high school) in Russia, it was the same there. As soon as teacher left for a bathroom break in the middle of the class, there would always be a few students who spring up to the desk and search real quick for answer sheets for the upcoming exam or something like that. No one would call them out, because the students who try to find the materials were considered the righteous heroes risking being caught for the common good. After talking to my dad (who still lives there) recently, I only reinforced my opinion that it is definitely a cultural issue in Russia. I cannot speak for China specifically, but I don’t see why it cannot be the case there as well. P.S. It sucks I even feel the need to mention this, but I have zero affiliation or interest in anything even remotely right-wing.
- m0zg 7y ago
  I also don't know, man, but that sounds so un-Russian to me, I, as a Russian myself, am having trouble believing it. It wasn't like that 25-30 years ago. Nobody would call people out in general, because in Russian culture being a snitch is one of the worst thing you can be, but nobody would go as far as to rummage through teacher's papers. Cheating was pretty rampant in other ways: people would bring cheatsheets to exams (there's no such thing as "cheatsheets allowed" exams there, and exams are often stupid hard because people keep "passing" them somehow), rip off essays, etc, but teacher's stuff was out of reach at least.
  - choonway 7y ago
    from a lecturer's perspective - It's not a problem if students pass - it's a problem if everybody gets an 'A' and there was no way to differentiate the cohort. It's a problem if too many fail - you have people retaking subjects and you don't have enough lecturers for additional classes - there are new students coming through the pipeline. Consequently, a minimum pass is usually indicative of the 'end of the road' and go get a job. Your marks are adjusted to pass. Unless you never attended classes at all or didn't hand up coursework, you are unlikely to fail. If the exams were crazy hard... that's because it was a wrong solution to the problem.
    - m0zg 7y ago
      What I meant to say, there was a bit of an arms race going on, especially in higher education. The professors and teachers knew many (if not all) students were cheating, so they adjusted the difficulty accordingly, so that, as you point out, not everyone gets an A. I don't know if it's still going on. And I did have a few professors which considered it a problem if more than half of their class passed the first time they took the exam.
      - choonway 7y ago
        Such professors... have another reason for failing half the class... They have to fail a number of students so that his class size maintains the numbers to avoid unwanted attention from the administration. If let's say the normal class size was about 20, but you only get about 15 new students each semester, so you fail 5 of them (or more accounting for dropouts) to make up the numbers.
rayiner 7y ago
I find the “it’s their culture” thing inappropriate too. (Especially because it seems to be more a deliberate economic/political strategy.) But you’ve mentioned one of my pet peeves so I am going to weigh in. You can’t judge a country by its expats. The expats are, after all, the ones who left (or were driven out). They’re not representative. Really, there is something a little odd with them—what kind of person abandons their country and all their family ties and moves across the world? Typical people don’t do that. My dad is one of those people. He’s a by the book rule follower, and Bangladeshis typically are ... more flexible. It drove him crazy. Then when he got the chance, he packed up his family and pretty much never looked back.
- FullyFunctional 7y ago
  You have issue with a generalist "it's their culture" and in the same breath generalize about ex-pats? Do you perhaps see a problem with that?

dnomad 7y ago

HN has gone completely off the rails. See my comment above. It's been like this for more than a year now. This sort of outright racist hate speech is now completely normal on HN and is eagerly embraced.

sonnyblarney 7y ago
Some behaviours are normative in some places and not in others, for whatever reasons. Some are mundane, some we don't notice, some we don't care about, some we misinterpret. But 'cheating' is a problem in China which I have come to believe is factually true. Have a gander [1] Also, thousands of Chinese ex-pat students have been expelled from US schools. [2] [1] https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1974986/why-do-chinese-students-think-its-ok-cheat https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1974986... [2] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/money-wealth/article/1812115/roughly-3pc-chinese-students-us-expelled-low-grades-academic https://www.scmp.com/news/china/money-wealth/article/1812115...
- choonway 7y ago
  why I say it is a cultural issue, is because when there are minority PRC origin students in majority Singaporean classes the PRCs tend to adapt and not try funny tricks. They longer they assimilate, the less they try. For Singaporeans it's an unholy sin to cheat at exams, (you are barred from exams for the semester, all your grades for the entire semester are invalidated, you parents will be ashamed of you, and everyone you know will unfriend you) but copying homework/assignments/plagiarism is still somewhat tolerated before university level.
- ModernMech 7y ago
  > Also, thousands of Chinese ex-pat students have been expelled from US schools. Very hard to draw any conclusions about this... From the article: "About 8,000 Chinese students were expelled from American schools in the past year... Most were expelled because of a low grade point average (GPA)" Another source quoting the same research says: "A 54-page report released this week says that schools in the United States have expelled 1,657 Chinese since the 2012-2013 school year, mainly for “academic dishonesty or low academic performances,” but a company representative now says the number might be as high as 8,000 students. “A lot of students tend to keep silent or go back to their country,” says Andrew Chen, chief development officer at WholeRen." [1] (also, note that your source is wrong, as this is over the 3 year period from 2012 - 2015, not over the year 2015) So it's 1657 over 3 years, but "might be as high as as high as 8000" according to a company representative? And over half of that was for poor performance, not cheating. So we can say that between 800 and 4000 students were expelled for academic dishonesty over 3 years. How does that compare to the general population? Not sure, but according to these statistics, over 100,000 students were expelled in 2006 from public schools in the US. [2] They don't break this down by reason, but that's a pretty big number compared to 200 - 1300 in a year for Chinese students, especially considering the US hosts a quarter million Chinese students each year [1]. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/us-colleges-expelled-many-8000-chinese-students-3-years-337445 https://www.newsweek.com/us-colleges-expelled-many-8000-chin... [2] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_169.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_169.asp

z2 7y ago

I used to be angry at these posts, but now I'm just sad. Despite the GP then saying it's 'PRC Chinese' vs 'Singaporean Chinese,' it's still unclear if this is a broad swipe at an ethnic group, a nation's people, or their culture at large. It's just easy to vent unsubstantiated anger when it's the popular thing to do.

rhizome 7y ago

Are they doing the stereotyping, or are they identifying instances of it? That is, people not avoiding the stereotype. I doubt it's a mystery, I know the stereotypes of white people and white men, and I strive to counteract them. As far as I know it's the only way to fight stereotypes.

deroisas2y 7y ago
Let’s apply the Jewish Litmus Test to this. If I were to identify instances of Jewish crime, and then say, “it’s their culture,” would that be racist?

scoot_718 7y ago

It's so rife in the academic world that it goes beyond stereotype.