5 ms·

I find it suspect how as soon as I say young people get discriminated on, a bunch of people who I'd assume are older than in their 20s, come out and defend such

I find it suspect how as soon as I say young people get discriminated on, a bunch of people who I'd assume are older than in their 20s, come out and defend such discrimination. I'm not that young anymore. I called them old farts because that is what they were. They discriminated on me based on my age alone, so that makes them old farts in my book. I wouldn't have been considered for the director position without any leverage, the numbers dropped for a good while after I left. There are respectable old men and women. Just like there are respectable young men and women and there are snot nose kids who discriminate against old people. In general, people who discriminate lose the right to respect from me and I might refer to them in a despective tone when commenting on an anonymous site where I'm answering informally.

jhayward 7y ago
I suspect that the incivility and self-righteousness that comes through in these comments may have lead some to think that the poster needs some time to gain perspective, and wisdom, about how to deal with everyone with respect.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  I might be an incivil, self-righteous person, but could you please explain to this incivil person why ageist discrimination is OK when applied to the young but not the old?
  - marcinzm 7y ago
    Because in that case it's not about age, age is the excuse given because they didn't want to actually explain why they didn't think you were good for the position. Maybe they attributed your negative qualities to young age and thus used that as the explanation, maybe not. Maybe they wanted a reason you couldn't argue against or fix. If they were particularly devious a-holes and you'd annoyed them then maybe they said age because they knew it'd drive you insane. edit: And right for the position includes personally not liking you or thinking you're not acting appropriately to them. I doubt they cared much for how the company does compared to their own egos.
    - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
      One day I will know as much about my own life as you seem to believe you know about me. Even if my particular case was not about ageism, we can agree it happens against the young unfairly, sometimes. Even if I'm too much of an asshole for it to happen to me. So, my point stands: can you please explain to this self righteous, incivil person who deserves the discrimination he has experienced, why it is OK to discriminate against the young but not the old? P.S. Odd how in your last comment when I argued against your logic and you couldn't answer any more, you said: 'I don't care about this you do' and then proceed to post a bunch more times in this same thread.
      - marcinzm 7y ago
        >So, my point stands: can you please explain to this self righteous, incivil person who deserves the discrimination he has experienced, why it is OK to discriminate against the young but not the old? Or are you going to admit to being a troll like you did on the other comment when I addressed your weak arguments? I didn't say it was. I said, it's okay to discriminate against personality traits which generally come with age. For example, lack of emotional stability is a negative trait in management and it correlates somewhat with age. As I said, it's about being able to portray those traits and that you possess them independently of age. Moreover, just like work experience matters so does life experience. Your brain changes with experience. It also changes drastically until you mid 20s. So, just like work experience (as measure by years working) can be a proxy for seniority so can life experience (as measured by age) be a proxy for those traits. Hopefully, people independently test things instead of relying on proxies alone. Finally, the difference between youth and everything else you've mentioned in terms of discrimination is trivially simple. The young naturally become old with time. The old do not become young with time. Blacks don't become white. Women don't become men. A few years of wait versus eternity of wait is the difference.
        4ntonius8lock 7y ago
        Reading your post, it sounds like what your saying is that discriminating against the young is justified and not that big of a deal. It seems your post makes this argument without actually stating as much. So I'm trying to get where you stand on age discrimination against the young. P.S. this is irrelevant to requesting experience, that is a requirement independent of what age the person has.
  - jhayward 7y ago
    My point is that what you believe to be age discrimination may not be that at all, rather a judgement of suitability based on temperament and how relationships are handled. A certain equanimity and humility often is attributed to age and the acquisition of wisdom. Perhaps this is what was referred to, rather than an actual judgement based on age. People frequently do not confront behavior directly, rather using euphemisms or attributing decisions to other aspects to avoid a heated and personal confrontation. One of the necessary skills of leadership positions is to be aware of this and respond to the real, underlying issue rather than the superficial one.
    - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
      Bob, the CEO, turned out to be a good friend of mine. Next time we have some beers, I'll tell him that his perspective was false and he was trying to protect my feelings (despite being a very brash guy who is known for being upfront) - I'll tell him how jhayward, nickpsecurity, JumpCrisscross and marcinzm and others told me his leadership secrets. Well, let's leave the world of theory, which I'll let the ass-u-me crowd dominate: Even if my particular case was not about ageism, we can agree it happens against the young unfairly, even if sometimes. Even if I'm too much of an asshole for it to happen to me. So, my point stands: can you please explain to this self righteous, incivil person who deserves the discrimination he has experienced, why it is OK to discriminate against the young but not the old?
      - aiisjustanif 7y ago
        Fine, young person here. I personally rather the person in a higher up managing position to have a lot of experience because it's such a vast scope of departments and functions you are usually responsible for in a large company. Having experience in multiple roles and area helps a shit ton from being blindsided. If this is a small company with less responsibilities, then I would consider this a problem and more so ageist, because less complexity and moving parts doesn't require more experience. But I agree with the others a little bit as well, you seem to lacking a little EQ.
fjsolwmv 7y ago
You can't expect to be taken seriously in a discussion of age discrimination when you are using blatant discriminatory language. Imagine if in a race discrimination discussion you had said the equivalent "I hire respectable black people, but I don't hire--[the word I can't say or HN would ban me]"
marcinzm 7y ago
Age is a proxy in people’s minds for other things, usually maturity, gravitas and playing the social game. Not always but more often than not. Age is a quick if inexact proxy but you can prove it in other ways.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  That's true. But it seems really inappropriate to say this here. We are discussing the insidiousness of discrimination with the hope of socially being more conscious and finding ways to improve this. It's kinda like going into a place with victims of racism and saying 'get over' and 'use your white voice/dress more white' when talking about the issue of racism. Or suggesting that racial discrimination is justified. It's out of place, even if the suggestion is coming from a good place of wanting the best for the other person. P.S. I had a department with large numbers and strong growth on my side for leverage, that is why the CEO considered me in the first place. The numbers took a big hit after I left. If the board would have had more people in their 40s and less in their 70s-80s, I would likely have been accepted. Explaining to me that this is politics is a very pedantic in assuming I don't understand politics.
  - marcinzm 7y ago
    >P.S. I had a department with large numbers and strong growth on my side for leverage, that is why the CEO considered me in the first place. The numbers took a big hit after I left. If the board would have had more people in their 40s and less in their 70s-80s, I would likely have been accepted. Explaining to me that this is politics is a very pedantic in assuming I don't understand politics. The fact you're talking about strong growth and large numbers is why I don't think you understand politics. That doesn't matter to the board. It's the foot in the door at best. Did you align politically with the board? Did they know it? Would you be a reliable pawn for them? Did they think they could work with you and get you to do what they wanted? Did you have strong support from other department heads? Did you have strong support from other in higher positions? Did you have any major opponents? Any secret opponents? Did you know of those opponents through your connections? I could go on but point being, that doing a good job is pretty low on the list of things which matters in politics.

jhayward 7y ago

I suspect that the incivility and self-righteousness that comes through in these comments may have lead some to think that the poster needs some time to gain perspective, and wisdom, about how to deal with everyone with respect.

4ntonius8lock 7y ago
I might be an incivil, self-righteous person, but could you please explain to this incivil person why ageist discrimination is OK when applied to the young but not the old?
- marcinzm 7y ago
  Because in that case it's not about age, age is the excuse given because they didn't want to actually explain why they didn't think you were good for the position. Maybe they attributed your negative qualities to young age and thus used that as the explanation, maybe not. Maybe they wanted a reason you couldn't argue against or fix. If they were particularly devious a-holes and you'd annoyed them then maybe they said age because they knew it'd drive you insane. edit: And right for the position includes personally not liking you or thinking you're not acting appropriately to them. I doubt they cared much for how the company does compared to their own egos.
  - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
    One day I will know as much about my own life as you seem to believe you know about me. Even if my particular case was not about ageism, we can agree it happens against the young unfairly, sometimes. Even if I'm too much of an asshole for it to happen to me. So, my point stands: can you please explain to this self righteous, incivil person who deserves the discrimination he has experienced, why it is OK to discriminate against the young but not the old? P.S. Odd how in your last comment when I argued against your logic and you couldn't answer any more, you said: 'I don't care about this you do' and then proceed to post a bunch more times in this same thread.
    - marcinzm 7y ago
      >So, my point stands: can you please explain to this self righteous, incivil person who deserves the discrimination he has experienced, why it is OK to discriminate against the young but not the old? Or are you going to admit to being a troll like you did on the other comment when I addressed your weak arguments? I didn't say it was. I said, it's okay to discriminate against personality traits which generally come with age. For example, lack of emotional stability is a negative trait in management and it correlates somewhat with age. As I said, it's about being able to portray those traits and that you possess them independently of age. Moreover, just like work experience matters so does life experience. Your brain changes with experience. It also changes drastically until you mid 20s. So, just like work experience (as measure by years working) can be a proxy for seniority so can life experience (as measured by age) be a proxy for those traits. Hopefully, people independently test things instead of relying on proxies alone. Finally, the difference between youth and everything else you've mentioned in terms of discrimination is trivially simple. The young naturally become old with time. The old do not become young with time. Blacks don't become white. Women don't become men. A few years of wait versus eternity of wait is the difference.
      - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
        Reading your post, it sounds like what your saying is that discriminating against the young is justified and not that big of a deal. It seems your post makes this argument without actually stating as much. So I'm trying to get where you stand on age discrimination against the young. P.S. this is irrelevant to requesting experience, that is a requirement independent of what age the person has.
- jhayward 7y ago
  My point is that what you believe to be age discrimination may not be that at all, rather a judgement of suitability based on temperament and how relationships are handled. A certain equanimity and humility often is attributed to age and the acquisition of wisdom. Perhaps this is what was referred to, rather than an actual judgement based on age. People frequently do not confront behavior directly, rather using euphemisms or attributing decisions to other aspects to avoid a heated and personal confrontation. One of the necessary skills of leadership positions is to be aware of this and respond to the real, underlying issue rather than the superficial one.
  - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
    Bob, the CEO, turned out to be a good friend of mine. Next time we have some beers, I'll tell him that his perspective was false and he was trying to protect my feelings (despite being a very brash guy who is known for being upfront) - I'll tell him how jhayward, nickpsecurity, JumpCrisscross and marcinzm and others told me his leadership secrets. Well, let's leave the world of theory, which I'll let the ass-u-me crowd dominate: Even if my particular case was not about ageism, we can agree it happens against the young unfairly, even if sometimes. Even if I'm too much of an asshole for it to happen to me. So, my point stands: can you please explain to this self righteous, incivil person who deserves the discrimination he has experienced, why it is OK to discriminate against the young but not the old?
    - aiisjustanif 7y ago
      Fine, young person here. I personally rather the person in a higher up managing position to have a lot of experience because it's such a vast scope of departments and functions you are usually responsible for in a large company. Having experience in multiple roles and area helps a shit ton from being blindsided. If this is a small company with less responsibilities, then I would consider this a problem and more so ageist, because less complexity and moving parts doesn't require more experience. But I agree with the others a little bit as well, you seem to lacking a little EQ.

fjsolwmv 7y ago

You can't expect to be taken seriously in a discussion of age discrimination when you are using blatant discriminatory language. Imagine if in a race discrimination discussion you had said the equivalent "I hire respectable black people, but I don't hire--[the word I can't say or HN would ban me]"

marcinzm 7y ago

Age is a proxy in people’s minds for other things, usually maturity, gravitas and playing the social game. Not always but more often than not. Age is a quick if inexact proxy but you can prove it in other ways.

4ntonius8lock 7y ago
That's true. But it seems really inappropriate to say this here. We are discussing the insidiousness of discrimination with the hope of socially being more conscious and finding ways to improve this. It's kinda like going into a place with victims of racism and saying 'get over' and 'use your white voice/dress more white' when talking about the issue of racism. Or suggesting that racial discrimination is justified. It's out of place, even if the suggestion is coming from a good place of wanting the best for the other person. P.S. I had a department with large numbers and strong growth on my side for leverage, that is why the CEO considered me in the first place. The numbers took a big hit after I left. If the board would have had more people in their 40s and less in their 70s-80s, I would likely have been accepted. Explaining to me that this is politics is a very pedantic in assuming I don't understand politics.
- marcinzm 7y ago
  >P.S. I had a department with large numbers and strong growth on my side for leverage, that is why the CEO considered me in the first place. The numbers took a big hit after I left. If the board would have had more people in their 40s and less in their 70s-80s, I would likely have been accepted. Explaining to me that this is politics is a very pedantic in assuming I don't understand politics. The fact you're talking about strong growth and large numbers is why I don't think you understand politics. That doesn't matter to the board. It's the foot in the door at best. Did you align politically with the board? Did they know it? Would you be a reliable pawn for them? Did they think they could work with you and get you to do what they wanted? Did you have strong support from other department heads? Did you have strong support from other in higher positions? Did you have any major opponents? Any secret opponents? Did you know of those opponents through your connections? I could go on but point being, that doing a good job is pretty low on the list of things which matters in politics.