5 ms·

Odd that in an article about age based discrimination, they don't mention that there is also age based discrimination against young people, for example, getting

Odd that in an article about age based discrimination, they don't mention that there is also age based discrimination against young people, for example, getting into C level positions in the non-tech world. When I used to be employed by other people, I specifically remember being told "we can't really promote you to director, you are too young". I wasn't inexperienced (I started working full time at 16). It wasn't that I hadn't earned it. It was because the old farts on the board wouldn't take me seriously. Discrimination sucks.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
blub 7y ago
Age discrimination against young people is temporary and is not causing any major (or even minor) social problems. One literally just has to wait a bit longer while being gainfully employed. On the other hand, older people can't get jobs and their livelihood + potentially the livelihood of their families is at risk.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> I wasn't inexperienced (I started working full time at 16). It wasn't that I hadn't earned it. Above middle management, political calculus dominates meritocratic concerns (in the short term). This is true in any organisation because we’re primates. You won’t “earn” your way into senior management and you won’t help your case by informally complaining. If you want a promotion you need leverage. Relationships with (potential) shareholders and creditors, a credible threat to decamp (and cause damage), et cetera. If you can’t threaten to leave you have no leverage. If your leaving wouldn’t cause the Board and senior management pain, you have no leverage. (If you have no leverage, that’s fine—get it.) Speaking as someone who spent a lot of their career being young (and impatient).
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  I was specifically told by the CEO I would be considered for the position if not for my age. I earned my place by proving my value and reliability for years. Explaining why we discriminate is not helping those who want to see this stopped. It's like explaining why old people get discriminated upon. Yes, there is a logic to it. No, it is not acceptable. Yes, that is how it works now. No, that is not how it will always work, humans are constantly evolving. The way you talk sounds defeatist. It sounds a lot like the old 'thats just the way it is' when people talk about change. BTW, I totally agree with you as to the fact that the logic you are talking about is correct in that is how things work NOW. Though we have been overcoming this. Or else there wouldn't be black or women in any boardroom. Change is happening. I don't believe those who say it will always be the same. P.S. this happened to me more than 10 years ago. I ended up quitting and since spent the majority of my life working for myself.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > was specifically told by the CEO I would be considered for the position if not for my age I’ve been told this and it sucks. I made the mistake of trying grovelling and complaining. Both failed for, with hindsight, fundamental reasons. If you’re ambitious, you have to develop a political sense. Keeping stock of leverage relationships is key. If you lack leverage, you can’t make demands. If you’d represented revenue and threatened to take it elsewhere, the CEO or Board may have overcome their biases. (If not, you’d get what you wanted by effecting the threat.)
    - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
      Again, what you are saying can be summed up in 'get over it' and 'find a way around it for yourself'. That's fine. I actually did. But it seems really inappropriate to say this here. We are discussing the insidiousness of discrimination with the hope of socially being more conscious and finding ways to improve this. It's kinda like going into a place with victims of racism and saying 'get over' and 'use your white voice/dress more white' when talking about the issue of racism. It's out of place, even if the suggestion is coming from a good place of wanting the best for the other person. P.S. I had a department with large numbers and strong growth on my side for leverage, that is why the CEO considered me in the first place. The numbers took a big hit after I left. If the board would have had more people in their 40s and less in their 70s-80s, I would likely have been accepted. Explaining to me that this is politics is a bit pedantic in assuming I don't understand politics.
      - nickpsecurity 7y ago
        "Again, what you are saying can be summed up in 'get over it' and 'find a way around it for yourself'." That's not what I'm reading in the comment. They are telling you it's a different game, they focus on what kinds of value you bring that they actually care about, and you can have leverage in such situations if you are such a person. From there, you automatically know to be the person delivering on the metrics that matter to upper management. Maybe to see if you even can before getting a job in a specific organization. They're telling you how to be more effective in the event you want to win more at that level.
marcinzm 7y ago
>It wasn't that I hadn't earned it. It was because the old farts on the board wouldn't take me seriously. Except getting them to take you seriously is part of your job in upper management. Age matters but your view of them as old farts makes me suspect you did nothing to gain their favor in other ways. As someone else said, those ways have little to do with job based merit.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  I find it suspect how as soon as I say young people get discriminated on, a bunch of people who I'd assume are older than in their 20s, come out and defend such discrimination. I'm not that young anymore. I called them old farts because that is what they were. They discriminated on me based on my age alone, so that makes them old farts in my book. I wouldn't have been considered for the director position without any leverage, the numbers dropped for a good while after I left. There are respectable old men and women. Just like there are respectable young men and women and there are snot nose kids who discriminate against old people. In general, people who discriminate lose the right to respect from me and I might refer to them in a despective tone when commenting on an anonymous site where I'm answering informally.
  - jhayward 7y ago
    I suspect that the incivility and self-righteousness that comes through in these comments may have lead some to think that the poster needs some time to gain perspective, and wisdom, about how to deal with everyone with respect.
    - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
      I might be an incivil, self-righteous person, but could you please explain to this incivil person why ageist discrimination is OK when applied to the young but not the old?
      - marcinzm 7y ago
        Because in that case it's not about age, age is the excuse given because they didn't want to actually explain why they didn't think you were good for the position. Maybe they attributed your negative qualities to young age and thus used that as the explanation, maybe not. Maybe they wanted a reason you couldn't argue against or fix. If they were particularly devious a-holes and you'd annoyed them then maybe they said age because they knew it'd drive you insane. edit: And right for the position includes personally not liking you or thinking you're not acting appropriately to them. I doubt they cared much for how the company does compared to their own egos.
solidsnack9000 7y ago
Not being able to get a C-level position is a problem for a very small number of people. Not being able to get a job at all, on the other hand...
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  Walmart hires old people as greeters. I'm sorry, you don't get to say "poor old people who get discriminated on" while at the same time saying "young people should be discriminated on" or "it isn't as bad if the shoe is on the other foot". Given the strong reaction I'm getting from mostly old people who want to see discrimination on the young (or at least are happy to justify it) I'm starting to see why the article didn't include both sides. It seems a non insignificant % of boomers want it both ways. And I'm guessing most of their target audience is older.
  - solidsnack9000 7y ago
    If we were talking about discrimination against a large number of young people, I would be singing a different tune. Privileged and well-to-do people seeking “justice” for themselves by comparing their situation to that of other people whose situation is really desperate is unfortunately all too common.
    - blub 7y ago
      I just can't get over the fact that the parent poster derailed a thread about people not being able to get jobs - which is jeopardizing their retirement - only to complain about themselves being rejected for a CxO job in their youth. Some really are blind to their privilege and arrogance.
  - NikkiA 7y ago
    If you think old people are only good for walmart greeters, then I think your problem with getting a C-level job might be the lack of empathy making you a total liability to hire in anything but bottom rung jobs.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

blub 7y ago

Age discrimination against young people is temporary and is not causing any major (or even minor) social problems. One literally just has to wait a bit longer while being gainfully employed. On the other hand, older people can't get jobs and their livelihood + potentially the livelihood of their families is at risk.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> I wasn't inexperienced (I started working full time at 16). It wasn't that I hadn't earned it. Above middle management, political calculus dominates meritocratic concerns (in the short term). This is true in any organisation because we’re primates. You won’t “earn” your way into senior management and you won’t help your case by informally complaining. If you want a promotion you need leverage. Relationships with (potential) shareholders and creditors, a credible threat to decamp (and cause damage), et cetera. If you can’t threaten to leave you have no leverage. If your leaving wouldn’t cause the Board and senior management pain, you have no leverage. (If you have no leverage, that’s fine—get it.) Speaking as someone who spent a lot of their career being young (and impatient).

4ntonius8lock 7y ago
I was specifically told by the CEO I would be considered for the position if not for my age. I earned my place by proving my value and reliability for years. Explaining why we discriminate is not helping those who want to see this stopped. It's like explaining why old people get discriminated upon. Yes, there is a logic to it. No, it is not acceptable. Yes, that is how it works now. No, that is not how it will always work, humans are constantly evolving. The way you talk sounds defeatist. It sounds a lot like the old 'thats just the way it is' when people talk about change. BTW, I totally agree with you as to the fact that the logic you are talking about is correct in that is how things work NOW. Though we have been overcoming this. Or else there wouldn't be black or women in any boardroom. Change is happening. I don't believe those who say it will always be the same. P.S. this happened to me more than 10 years ago. I ended up quitting and since spent the majority of my life working for myself.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > was specifically told by the CEO I would be considered for the position if not for my age I’ve been told this and it sucks. I made the mistake of trying grovelling and complaining. Both failed for, with hindsight, fundamental reasons. If you’re ambitious, you have to develop a political sense. Keeping stock of leverage relationships is key. If you lack leverage, you can’t make demands. If you’d represented revenue and threatened to take it elsewhere, the CEO or Board may have overcome their biases. (If not, you’d get what you wanted by effecting the threat.)
  - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
    Again, what you are saying can be summed up in 'get over it' and 'find a way around it for yourself'. That's fine. I actually did. But it seems really inappropriate to say this here. We are discussing the insidiousness of discrimination with the hope of socially being more conscious and finding ways to improve this. It's kinda like going into a place with victims of racism and saying 'get over' and 'use your white voice/dress more white' when talking about the issue of racism. It's out of place, even if the suggestion is coming from a good place of wanting the best for the other person. P.S. I had a department with large numbers and strong growth on my side for leverage, that is why the CEO considered me in the first place. The numbers took a big hit after I left. If the board would have had more people in their 40s and less in their 70s-80s, I would likely have been accepted. Explaining to me that this is politics is a bit pedantic in assuming I don't understand politics.
    - nickpsecurity 7y ago
      "Again, what you are saying can be summed up in 'get over it' and 'find a way around it for yourself'." That's not what I'm reading in the comment. They are telling you it's a different game, they focus on what kinds of value you bring that they actually care about, and you can have leverage in such situations if you are such a person. From there, you automatically know to be the person delivering on the metrics that matter to upper management. Maybe to see if you even can before getting a job in a specific organization. They're telling you how to be more effective in the event you want to win more at that level.

marcinzm 7y ago

>It wasn't that I hadn't earned it. It was because the old farts on the board wouldn't take me seriously. Except getting them to take you seriously is part of your job in upper management. Age matters but your view of them as old farts makes me suspect you did nothing to gain their favor in other ways. As someone else said, those ways have little to do with job based merit.

4ntonius8lock 7y ago
I find it suspect how as soon as I say young people get discriminated on, a bunch of people who I'd assume are older than in their 20s, come out and defend such discrimination. I'm not that young anymore. I called them old farts because that is what they were. They discriminated on me based on my age alone, so that makes them old farts in my book. I wouldn't have been considered for the director position without any leverage, the numbers dropped for a good while after I left. There are respectable old men and women. Just like there are respectable young men and women and there are snot nose kids who discriminate against old people. In general, people who discriminate lose the right to respect from me and I might refer to them in a despective tone when commenting on an anonymous site where I'm answering informally.
- jhayward 7y ago
  I suspect that the incivility and self-righteousness that comes through in these comments may have lead some to think that the poster needs some time to gain perspective, and wisdom, about how to deal with everyone with respect.
  - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
    I might be an incivil, self-righteous person, but could you please explain to this incivil person why ageist discrimination is OK when applied to the young but not the old?
    - marcinzm 7y ago
      Because in that case it's not about age, age is the excuse given because they didn't want to actually explain why they didn't think you were good for the position. Maybe they attributed your negative qualities to young age and thus used that as the explanation, maybe not. Maybe they wanted a reason you couldn't argue against or fix. If they were particularly devious a-holes and you'd annoyed them then maybe they said age because they knew it'd drive you insane. edit: And right for the position includes personally not liking you or thinking you're not acting appropriately to them. I doubt they cared much for how the company does compared to their own egos.

solidsnack9000 7y ago

Not being able to get a C-level position is a problem for a very small number of people. Not being able to get a job at all, on the other hand...

4ntonius8lock 7y ago
Walmart hires old people as greeters. I'm sorry, you don't get to say "poor old people who get discriminated on" while at the same time saying "young people should be discriminated on" or "it isn't as bad if the shoe is on the other foot". Given the strong reaction I'm getting from mostly old people who want to see discrimination on the young (or at least are happy to justify it) I'm starting to see why the article didn't include both sides. It seems a non insignificant % of boomers want it both ways. And I'm guessing most of their target audience is older.
- solidsnack9000 7y ago
  If we were talking about discrimination against a large number of young people, I would be singing a different tune. Privileged and well-to-do people seeking “justice” for themselves by comparing their situation to that of other people whose situation is really desperate is unfortunately all too common.
  - blub 7y ago
    I just can't get over the fact that the parent poster derailed a thread about people not being able to get jobs - which is jeopardizing their retirement - only to complain about themselves being rejected for a CxO job in their youth. Some really are blind to their privilege and arrogance.
- NikkiA 7y ago
  If you think old people are only good for walmart greeters, then I think your problem with getting a C-level job might be the lack of empathy making you a total liability to hire in anything but bottom rung jobs.