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If you can recompute my hand back after that, i'd be happy to put it in whatever box you want, the thing that is valuable to me is the time i still have to live

If you can recompute my hand back after that, i'd be happy to put it in whatever box you want, the thing that is valuable to me is the time i still have to live, not the absence of all pain. If i had lots of time, and sufficiently advanced technology, i'd happily play realistic games where i had to go through torture by medieval inquisition, or other interesting ways of dying. And i'll be happy to go through any amount of suffering if i knew that i have a week to live anyway, and my suffering can help science or someone i care about. Maybe in some situations logic isn't enough (though i doubt that), but in situations like that thoughtless comment in the style "wHaT iF i CuT YoUr HaNd" is not enough either:)

EForEndeavour 7y ago
> i'd happily play realistic games where i had to go through torture by medieval inquisition, or other interesting ways of dying I'd bet good money that such an experience would very quickly show you why having "computational resources" taken by someone else is so vigorously avoided by most creatures. The parent comment's thought experiment of "if all pain is just computation, let me 'compute' your hand" neatly refutes the practicality of your stance. Sure, pain is mediated by the same physicochemical processes that govern every other aspect of our bodies. Tell that to someone suffering oncogenic bone pain, or a second-degree burn, or the pain of losing a life partner of 70 years. You claim that you value the time you still have to live, and not the absence of all pain. What about your quality of life, whatever that means to you? Have you ever had, e.g., an infected tooth, been hit hard in the groin, or even badly sunburnt? What value, if any, do you place on the privilege of not having to "compute" those sensations? Moving beyond physical pain, what's the longest you've ever stayed awake? Acute sleep deprivation causes no permanent damage and no physical pain, but real-world evidence confirms that at some point, subject to nonstop sleep deprivation, you would do anything that you thought could end the experience. I would. Anyone would. Some people would of course last longer than others, but everybody cracks, computer-simulated or not. > i'll be happy to go through any amount of suffering if i knew that i have a week to live anyway, and my suffering can help science or someone i care about I don't mean to dismiss your generosity or confidence in your ability to accept pain, but it's very easy to express this sentiment from the comfort of a relatively healthy body. It's true that looming certain death changes a person's attitude toward pain, but I would suggest for your own subjective (not logical, but subjective) wellbeing that you tighten up your "any amount of suffering" threshold.
- nightwing 7y ago
  Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I unfortunately didn't manage to formulate my point of view clearly. I am not talking about the pain of losing someone you love, or chronic pain not allowing you to live. (In both of cases here someone loses their life). I am also not talking about the ability to consciously keep choosing to go through pain for a bigger idea. I am talking about the comparison between physical pain and death. Almost all cases when people experience pain in the real world are linked to death or permanent injury. This in conjugation with the knowledge of inevitability of death makes most people think that pain is worse or as bad as death. But think of it this way: you have a choice to either be subjected to a month of most horrible suffering and then live completely healthy for a year or live your remaining month and then die without any pain. Would you choose the second? Why would anyone choose the second? > Have you ever had, e.g., an infected tooth yes, and i have tooth canals cleared without anesthetic several times, knowledge that after the half hour you'll be back to normal helps a lot. > Acute sleep deprivation causes no permanent damage Are you sure? I think people can die from it. The longest i've stayed awake was ~30 hours, i do not want to repeat it but even a longer version of it, or any from of torture are simply not comparable with dying. And saying "i killed it painlessly" is simply a way to comfort oneself, and doesn't help the one who is killed at all.

EForEndeavour 7y ago

> i'd happily play realistic games where i had to go through torture by medieval inquisition, or other interesting ways of dying I'd bet good money that such an experience would very quickly show you why having "computational resources" taken by someone else is so vigorously avoided by most creatures. The parent comment's thought experiment of "if all pain is just computation, let me 'compute' your hand" neatly refutes the practicality of your stance. Sure, pain is mediated by the same physicochemical processes that govern every other aspect of our bodies. Tell that to someone suffering oncogenic bone pain, or a second-degree burn, or the pain of losing a life partner of 70 years. You claim that you value the time you still have to live, and not the absence of all pain. What about your quality of life, whatever that means to you? Have you ever had, e.g., an infected tooth, been hit hard in the groin, or even badly sunburnt? What value, if any, do you place on the privilege of not having to "compute" those sensations? Moving beyond physical pain, what's the longest you've ever stayed awake? Acute sleep deprivation causes no permanent damage and no physical pain, but real-world evidence confirms that at some point, subject to nonstop sleep deprivation, you would do anything that you thought could end the experience. I would. Anyone would. Some people would of course last longer than others, but everybody cracks, computer-simulated or not. > i'll be happy to go through any amount of suffering if i knew that i have a week to live anyway, and my suffering can help science or someone i care about I don't mean to dismiss your generosity or confidence in your ability to accept pain, but it's very easy to express this sentiment from the comfort of a relatively healthy body. It's true that looming certain death changes a person's attitude toward pain, but I would suggest for your own subjective (not logical, but subjective) wellbeing that you tighten up your "any amount of suffering" threshold.

nightwing 7y ago
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I unfortunately didn't manage to formulate my point of view clearly. I am not talking about the pain of losing someone you love, or chronic pain not allowing you to live. (In both of cases here someone loses their life). I am also not talking about the ability to consciously keep choosing to go through pain for a bigger idea. I am talking about the comparison between physical pain and death. Almost all cases when people experience pain in the real world are linked to death or permanent injury. This in conjugation with the knowledge of inevitability of death makes most people think that pain is worse or as bad as death. But think of it this way: you have a choice to either be subjected to a month of most horrible suffering and then live completely healthy for a year or live your remaining month and then die without any pain. Would you choose the second? Why would anyone choose the second? > Have you ever had, e.g., an infected tooth yes, and i have tooth canals cleared without anesthetic several times, knowledge that after the half hour you'll be back to normal helps a lot. > Acute sleep deprivation causes no permanent damage Are you sure? I think people can die from it. The longest i've stayed awake was ~30 hours, i do not want to repeat it but even a longer version of it, or any from of torture are simply not comparable with dying. And saying "i killed it painlessly" is simply a way to comfort oneself, and doesn't help the one who is killed at all.