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> Content being heavily reliant on JavaScript “injection” Salient point right here. Being served a blank white page (when JS is disabled) can deter a person fr

> Content being heavily reliant on JavaScript “injection” Salient point right here. Being served a blank white page (when JS is disabled) can deter a person from ever visiting a site again. Some peope out there want to vet a site before allowing it to run arbitrary code on their machine.

darepublic 7y ago
Hence the move toward static site frameworks like react static and gatsby
_bxg1 7y ago
> run arbitrary code on their machine That's a bit of an exaggeration. JavaScript is strongly sandboxed and has a pretty good permissions system. The only malicious things it can really do are 1) based on cookies or 2) crypto mining. Personally I think it's unreasonable to expect today's sites to work without JavaScript completely. The real benefits of using it sparingly are: - Pages load faster - Pages are more responsive - Applications are less stateful and call out to systems that have a larger number of eyes on them, making them less fragile and lowering maintenance complexity Minimalism is a virtue in any programming context
- patrick5415 7y ago
  About the only time JavaScript is useful is something like google docs. The rest is just fluff and there’s no reason a webpage should require it.
- tomjen3 7y ago
  I am split: web pages can be enhanced with JS, but webpage mostly shouldn't need them (exception: some data visualization does benefit from being able to dynamically change values). Web apps on the other hand, probably do need them. I use newsblur and definitely enjoy the shortcuts.
- gugagore 7y ago
  The microarchitectural side-channel attacks that have received a lot of attention lately really challenge the idea of a "sandbox". Also the poster said that webpages shouldn't be blank without having, not that they should be fully functional. I think it's reasonable to expect some function without javascript.
- bo1024 7y ago
  3) Fingerprinting and tracking in general are heavily javascript-focused. Less common in practice (I assume), but still possible, are 4) Rowhammer or Spectre/Meltdown style attacks that break out of the permission system. Finally, there's general trickery, manipulation, and malware, like trying to embed a frame from Facebook and steal user credentials or so on (I'm fuzzy on these sorts of attacks, not an expert).
  - dlhavema 7y ago
    Before javascript took over tracking the 1x1 white pixel ruled the land. No javascript needed there.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    3) Right - and I guess "fingerprinting" goes slightly beyond cookies - but when people say "execute arbitrary code" they typically imply something has free-reign, which JavaScript generally doesn't. 4) True, although it's my understanding that the exploits are hard to implement, doubly-so from an abstracted layer like JavaScript. > trickery, manipulation...like trying to embed a frame from Facebook and steal user credentials or so on This falls under "cookies-based", and I'm pretty sure no JavaScript is necessary for these kinds of attacks.
    - bo1024 7y ago
      Good point on 3. I guess the main point is browsers at least disallow reading and writing arbitrary files directly.
- coin 7y ago
  > The only malicious things And a crappy end user experience. Why do I need to execute code just to read a static, read-only text article?
- lultimouomo 7y ago
  > JavaScript is strongly sandboxed and has a pretty good permissions system We now live in a post-Spectre world. I don't think a sandbox means all it meant in 2017.
  - SquareWheel 7y ago
    Can you point to a single real-world example of Spectre being used in a browser attack?
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
Sadly, the majority of web devs don’t give a rat’s butt about those users.
- SquareWheel 7y ago
  All they do is complain, make special demands, then go on to block ads anyway. It makes it hard to care about those users.
  - sgift 7y ago
    Could've been different if web devs listened when they got told "your ads get overbearing, no one can even try to concentrate on the content anymore" - but they were greedy and ad blocking came about as self defense.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    Seems that ad-blocking has made ads worse.
    - grogenaut 7y ago
      It's called an arms race for a reason

darepublic 7y ago

Hence the move toward static site frameworks like react static and gatsby

_bxg1 7y ago

> run arbitrary code on their machine That's a bit of an exaggeration. JavaScript is strongly sandboxed and has a pretty good permissions system. The only malicious things it can really do are 1) based on cookies or 2) crypto mining. Personally I think it's unreasonable to expect today's sites to work without JavaScript completely. The real benefits of using it sparingly are: - Pages load faster - Pages are more responsive - Applications are less stateful and call out to systems that have a larger number of eyes on them, making them less fragile and lowering maintenance complexity Minimalism is a virtue in any programming context

patrick5415 7y ago
About the only time JavaScript is useful is something like google docs. The rest is just fluff and there’s no reason a webpage should require it.
tomjen3 7y ago
I am split: web pages can be enhanced with JS, but webpage mostly shouldn't need them (exception: some data visualization does benefit from being able to dynamically change values). Web apps on the other hand, probably do need them. I use newsblur and definitely enjoy the shortcuts.
gugagore 7y ago
The microarchitectural side-channel attacks that have received a lot of attention lately really challenge the idea of a "sandbox". Also the poster said that webpages shouldn't be blank without having, not that they should be fully functional. I think it's reasonable to expect some function without javascript.
bo1024 7y ago
3) Fingerprinting and tracking in general are heavily javascript-focused. Less common in practice (I assume), but still possible, are 4) Rowhammer or Spectre/Meltdown style attacks that break out of the permission system. Finally, there's general trickery, manipulation, and malware, like trying to embed a frame from Facebook and steal user credentials or so on (I'm fuzzy on these sorts of attacks, not an expert).
- dlhavema 7y ago
  Before javascript took over tracking the 1x1 white pixel ruled the land. No javascript needed there.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  3) Right - and I guess "fingerprinting" goes slightly beyond cookies - but when people say "execute arbitrary code" they typically imply something has free-reign, which JavaScript generally doesn't. 4) True, although it's my understanding that the exploits are hard to implement, doubly-so from an abstracted layer like JavaScript. > trickery, manipulation...like trying to embed a frame from Facebook and steal user credentials or so on This falls under "cookies-based", and I'm pretty sure no JavaScript is necessary for these kinds of attacks.
  - bo1024 7y ago
    Good point on 3. I guess the main point is browsers at least disallow reading and writing arbitrary files directly.
coin 7y ago
> The only malicious things And a crappy end user experience. Why do I need to execute code just to read a static, read-only text article?
lultimouomo 7y ago
> JavaScript is strongly sandboxed and has a pretty good permissions system We now live in a post-Spectre world. I don't think a sandbox means all it meant in 2017.
- SquareWheel 7y ago
  Can you point to a single real-world example of Spectre being used in a browser attack?

JustSomeNobody 7y ago

Sadly, the majority of web devs don’t give a rat’s butt about those users.

SquareWheel 7y ago
All they do is complain, make special demands, then go on to block ads anyway. It makes it hard to care about those users.
- sgift 7y ago
  Could've been different if web devs listened when they got told "your ads get overbearing, no one can even try to concentrate on the content anymore" - but they were greedy and ad blocking came about as self defense.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  Seems that ad-blocking has made ads worse.
  - grogenaut 7y ago
    It's called an arms race for a reason