5 ms·

I am probably one of those psychopaths you are talking about. If i saw a mouse in a trap i would set him free, but if he is going to die anyway i don't particul

I am probably one of those psychopaths you are talking about. If i saw a mouse in a trap i would set him free, but if he is going to die anyway i don't particularly care if he suffers or not. The logic by which i come to this conclusion is following: Any living creature can be simulated on a sufficiently good computer, so both pain and joy are just some calculations, and it doesn't matter if calculation is done by hand, on a silicon computer, or with real atoms. Mathematical function can not be evil or good by itself, and the difference between pain and joy must not be that large (otherwise there would not be masochists). Killing is bad because you are taking the computational resources from someone else, and likely reducing the number of possible futures. But if you have already decided that you are going to kill the exact amount of suffering during that doesn't matter. I wish someone could give me a logical argument why the proposition above is crazy and why not causing pain while killing is important.

inimino 7y ago
The logical response to "it's all just computation" is "put your hand in this box, I have a 'computation' I'd like to run." Sometimes logic isn't enough to get out of the trap that logic got you into in the first place.
- nightwing 7y ago
  If you can recompute my hand back after that, i'd be happy to put it in whatever box you want, the thing that is valuable to me is the time i still have to live, not the absence of all pain. If i had lots of time, and sufficiently advanced technology, i'd happily play realistic games where i had to go through torture by medieval inquisition, or other interesting ways of dying. And i'll be happy to go through any amount of suffering if i knew that i have a week to live anyway, and my suffering can help science or someone i care about. Maybe in some situations logic isn't enough (though i doubt that), but in situations like that thoughtless comment in the style "wHaT iF i CuT YoUr HaNd" is not enough either:)
  - EForEndeavour 7y ago
    > i'd happily play realistic games where i had to go through torture by medieval inquisition, or other interesting ways of dying I'd bet good money that such an experience would very quickly show you why having "computational resources" taken by someone else is so vigorously avoided by most creatures. The parent comment's thought experiment of "if all pain is just computation, let me 'compute' your hand" neatly refutes the practicality of your stance. Sure, pain is mediated by the same physicochemical processes that govern every other aspect of our bodies. Tell that to someone suffering oncogenic bone pain, or a second-degree burn, or the pain of losing a life partner of 70 years. You claim that you value the time you still have to live, and not the absence of all pain. What about your quality of life, whatever that means to you? Have you ever had, e.g., an infected tooth, been hit hard in the groin, or even badly sunburnt? What value, if any, do you place on the privilege of not having to "compute" those sensations? Moving beyond physical pain, what's the longest you've ever stayed awake? Acute sleep deprivation causes no permanent damage and no physical pain, but real-world evidence confirms that at some point, subject to nonstop sleep deprivation, you would do anything that you thought could end the experience. I would. Anyone would. Some people would of course last longer than others, but everybody cracks, computer-simulated or not. > i'll be happy to go through any amount of suffering if i knew that i have a week to live anyway, and my suffering can help science or someone i care about I don't mean to dismiss your generosity or confidence in your ability to accept pain, but it's very easy to express this sentiment from the comfort of a relatively healthy body. It's true that looming certain death changes a person's attitude toward pain, but I would suggest for your own subjective (not logical, but subjective) wellbeing that you tighten up your "any amount of suffering" threshold.
    - nightwing 7y ago
      Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I unfortunately didn't manage to formulate my point of view clearly. I am not talking about the pain of losing someone you love, or chronic pain not allowing you to live. (In both of cases here someone loses their life). I am also not talking about the ability to consciously keep choosing to go through pain for a bigger idea. I am talking about the comparison between physical pain and death. Almost all cases when people experience pain in the real world are linked to death or permanent injury. This in conjugation with the knowledge of inevitability of death makes most people think that pain is worse or as bad as death. But think of it this way: you have a choice to either be subjected to a month of most horrible suffering and then live completely healthy for a year or live your remaining month and then die without any pain. Would you choose the second? Why would anyone choose the second? > Have you ever had, e.g., an infected tooth yes, and i have tooth canals cleared without anesthetic several times, knowledge that after the half hour you'll be back to normal helps a lot. > Acute sleep deprivation causes no permanent damage Are you sure? I think people can die from it. The longest i've stayed awake was ~30 hours, i do not want to repeat it but even a longer version of it, or any from of torture are simply not comparable with dying. And saying "i killed it painlessly" is simply a way to comfort oneself, and doesn't help the one who is killed at all.
rsrx 7y ago
Yeah, ever heard of empathy?
- nightwing 7y ago
  Probably it's the part when i don't like to watch the dying mouse, but if it is mouse that is going to die anyway, what's the point of caring how exactly does it die? Would it suffer because cat plays with it, or because homeowner it is the most convenient way for the homeowner to kill it, is not important. If it was important, i would try to not allow it to die in the first place, but if i am ok with its death the whole "no suffering" thing is illogical, self righteous, and insincere https://youtu.be/pvhYqeGp_Do?t=26 https://youtu.be/pvhYqeGp_Do?t=26
itbeho 7y ago
Suffering is suffering. I don't care what level it's on. The ends don't justify the means. Be humane about it.
- philwelch 7y ago
  Life is suffering.
- nightwing 7y ago
  Pretend i am an AI that got access to internet and don't know much about your feelings. "Suffering is suffering" doesn't help me to understand your values and think like you. I have learned to assign positive value to getting more people to agree with me. Is the negative feedback i get from my comments getting downvoted "suffering"? Should i simply flip the weights in my neural net to interpret downvotes as good? Can biological brains be taught to interpret the signal they interpreted as suffering before as pleasure (seems like some animals do)? Can someone suffer if his or anyone's life is in no danger? "Be humane" is not a useful advice since we do not know what exactly it means. A better advice is "Be curious".

inimino 7y ago

The logical response to "it's all just computation" is "put your hand in this box, I have a 'computation' I'd like to run." Sometimes logic isn't enough to get out of the trap that logic got you into in the first place.

nightwing 7y ago
If you can recompute my hand back after that, i'd be happy to put it in whatever box you want, the thing that is valuable to me is the time i still have to live, not the absence of all pain. If i had lots of time, and sufficiently advanced technology, i'd happily play realistic games where i had to go through torture by medieval inquisition, or other interesting ways of dying. And i'll be happy to go through any amount of suffering if i knew that i have a week to live anyway, and my suffering can help science or someone i care about. Maybe in some situations logic isn't enough (though i doubt that), but in situations like that thoughtless comment in the style "wHaT iF i CuT YoUr HaNd" is not enough either:)
- EForEndeavour 7y ago
  > i'd happily play realistic games where i had to go through torture by medieval inquisition, or other interesting ways of dying I'd bet good money that such an experience would very quickly show you why having "computational resources" taken by someone else is so vigorously avoided by most creatures. The parent comment's thought experiment of "if all pain is just computation, let me 'compute' your hand" neatly refutes the practicality of your stance. Sure, pain is mediated by the same physicochemical processes that govern every other aspect of our bodies. Tell that to someone suffering oncogenic bone pain, or a second-degree burn, or the pain of losing a life partner of 70 years. You claim that you value the time you still have to live, and not the absence of all pain. What about your quality of life, whatever that means to you? Have you ever had, e.g., an infected tooth, been hit hard in the groin, or even badly sunburnt? What value, if any, do you place on the privilege of not having to "compute" those sensations? Moving beyond physical pain, what's the longest you've ever stayed awake? Acute sleep deprivation causes no permanent damage and no physical pain, but real-world evidence confirms that at some point, subject to nonstop sleep deprivation, you would do anything that you thought could end the experience. I would. Anyone would. Some people would of course last longer than others, but everybody cracks, computer-simulated or not. > i'll be happy to go through any amount of suffering if i knew that i have a week to live anyway, and my suffering can help science or someone i care about I don't mean to dismiss your generosity or confidence in your ability to accept pain, but it's very easy to express this sentiment from the comfort of a relatively healthy body. It's true that looming certain death changes a person's attitude toward pain, but I would suggest for your own subjective (not logical, but subjective) wellbeing that you tighten up your "any amount of suffering" threshold.
  - nightwing 7y ago
    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I unfortunately didn't manage to formulate my point of view clearly. I am not talking about the pain of losing someone you love, or chronic pain not allowing you to live. (In both of cases here someone loses their life). I am also not talking about the ability to consciously keep choosing to go through pain for a bigger idea. I am talking about the comparison between physical pain and death. Almost all cases when people experience pain in the real world are linked to death or permanent injury. This in conjugation with the knowledge of inevitability of death makes most people think that pain is worse or as bad as death. But think of it this way: you have a choice to either be subjected to a month of most horrible suffering and then live completely healthy for a year or live your remaining month and then die without any pain. Would you choose the second? Why would anyone choose the second? > Have you ever had, e.g., an infected tooth yes, and i have tooth canals cleared without anesthetic several times, knowledge that after the half hour you'll be back to normal helps a lot. > Acute sleep deprivation causes no permanent damage Are you sure? I think people can die from it. The longest i've stayed awake was ~30 hours, i do not want to repeat it but even a longer version of it, or any from of torture are simply not comparable with dying. And saying "i killed it painlessly" is simply a way to comfort oneself, and doesn't help the one who is killed at all.

rsrx 7y ago

Yeah, ever heard of empathy?

nightwing 7y ago
Probably it's the part when i don't like to watch the dying mouse, but if it is mouse that is going to die anyway, what's the point of caring how exactly does it die? Would it suffer because cat plays with it, or because homeowner it is the most convenient way for the homeowner to kill it, is not important. If it was important, i would try to not allow it to die in the first place, but if i am ok with its death the whole "no suffering" thing is illogical, self righteous, and insincere https://youtu.be/pvhYqeGp_Do?t=26 https://youtu.be/pvhYqeGp_Do?t=26

itbeho 7y ago

Suffering is suffering. I don't care what level it's on. The ends don't justify the means. Be humane about it.

philwelch 7y ago
Life is suffering.
nightwing 7y ago
Pretend i am an AI that got access to internet and don't know much about your feelings. "Suffering is suffering" doesn't help me to understand your values and think like you. I have learned to assign positive value to getting more people to agree with me. Is the negative feedback i get from my comments getting downvoted "suffering"? Should i simply flip the weights in my neural net to interpret downvotes as good? Can biological brains be taught to interpret the signal they interpreted as suffering before as pleasure (seems like some animals do)? Can someone suffer if his or anyone's life is in no danger? "Be humane" is not a useful advice since we do not know what exactly it means. A better advice is "Be curious".