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Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more

Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs? As a Chinese who emigrated because of the many social problems of China, I'm not sure switching to democracy right now will be beneficial for regular Chinese. You've all heard stories about how bad mannered Chinese tourists are, but those are still somehow better than the average Chinese I'd say. Think about people who still eat shark fins today, who have no problem buying rhino horns or pangolin skins. (there are more extreme stuff, one example: https://www.animalsasia.org/intl/media/news/news-archive/five-things-you-need-to-know-about-bear-bile-farming.html https://www.animalsasia.org/intl/media/news/news-archive/fiv...). If you ever visited mainland China you probably noticed many public restrooms have no toilet paper. Some places tried to put toilet paper in but people would steal all of them right after. I am not sure democracy can work with people like that. I fear it wont. I fear not enough educated/informed people will make democratic decisions that are harmful to themselves. I fear a democratic China will become the next Russia, the next Brazil, the next Turkey. At least the current party has done more poverty fighting than most of the third world democratic countries. (data available on world bank website) Does China have problems? Absolutely. The question is if you really understand what are the problems, before we even start talking if the proposed solutions will work or not. >Will the PRC just continue to exist as it is, forever? My last remaining hope is for massive power grabs by xi jinping (already happening), followed by government ineptitude as he ages and underlings squabble, followed by chaos upon his death. Beyond that I can't see any way out. If that happens, is that a good thing? To you, or some Americans who see China as a foe, maybe. I doubt such a chaos is what the average Chinese wants. P.S. PRC doesn't allow dual citizenship.

deleted 7y ago
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gcb0 7y ago
I sense from your post that you confuse democracy with capitalism. Also Brazil and Russia are not democratic (right now). Neither have a democratically elected leader.
- theseadroid 7y ago
  oh so the current presidents of Brazil is not democratically elected you mean[1]? And how would you assure a democratic China will not have a corrupted election scheme that resemble Russia's? Without you stating any evidence, I dare to say your sense is wrong. Chinese are more than ready for capitalism if the current system is not already it. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Brazilian_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Brazilian_general_electio...
  - gcb0 7y ago
    Yes. Two other candidates were illegally prevented from participating. And there were more fake news campaigns in brazil, where whatsapp is the de facto communication medium, than USA during the election. "Lula’s criminal conviction on corruption charges last year came under highly suspicious circumstances. All year long, polls showed him as the clear front-runner for the 2018 presidential race [...] Ever since, Lula has been held in a makeshift prison cell inside a Federal Police building in Curitiba [...] An electoral court then barred Lula’s candidacy for president. Barring Lula from running as a candidate paved the way for the election of the far-right extremist Jair Bolsonaro" https://theintercept.com/2019/05/22/lula-brazil-ex-president-prison-interview/ https://theintercept.com/2019/05/22/lula-brazil-ex-president...
komali2 7y ago
I hear you and understand you, but your argument is essentially nullified by the existence of Taiwan. We have proof positive that the Chinese culture is not only compatible with democracy, it flourishes beneath it.
- theseadroid 7y ago
  I'm not saying Chinese culture is incompatible with democracy. I'm talking about eduction mainly. If you look into post WWII histories of Taiwan/South Korea, it wont be hard for you to find a few dictators within the democracies[1]. I personally think during those periods the citizens of those democracies were catching up on how democracy works. 1. examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek
  - komali2 7y ago
    Could not fantastic education provide an intelligent enough population to handle democracy within a single generation? I.e.... exactly what happened in Taiwan upon the removal of martial law? The USA managed it swaths of the country spread across a frontier.
    - theseadroid 7y ago
      But you have to admit there are risks for the switching, i.e. there are countries that become worse after the switching. Personally, I dont think democracy is the cure to the current problems. Education probably is. And I haven't been presented with enough evidence to think otherwise. Like, did Taiwan become drastic better after removal of martial laws? Or is Taiwan at a better position today mainly because of the help of U.S.? Is there any other third world democratic countries that have developed as fast or faster than China, who is NOT a U.S. ally?
      - repolfx 7y ago
        Which democracy are you thinking of that 'became worse after switching'? I can't think of any, though I can think of a few countries that mostly botched the switch and ended up in a sort of pseudo-democracy.
NicoJuicy 7y ago
Different question, when we talk about China ( which is mostly incompatible with Western as superpower, because of the differences between society and disruption through state capitalism). I am always a little bit concerned about how it comes across for a Chinese person, because I do not want to offend them. And most of my points are about Xi's rule ( and actually somewhat cautious about it going globally). Can you enlight me on "what is happening now", if you are offended in a personal way or is it obvious that there is a difference?
- theseadroid 7y ago
  Sorry but I think your first paragraph is not complete? when we talk about China () then? Generally speaking I wont get offended as long as the discussion is rational and logical. Me personally dont care much about country or patriotism. But Chinese are like any other populations, each individual can be quite different. I'm not really in the loop of what is happening now but I do think sometimes only (trade?) wars can resolve unbridgeable misunderstandings.
  - NicoJuicy 7y ago
    Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. And when we talk about China = all the stuff that has been going on lately, comments here are not pro Xi mostly.
    - theseadroid 7y ago
      Thank you for being curious. What I found offending on HN is people who are cool-headed within their own domain can be irrational and quick to conclusions when it comes to issues related to China. We all know the project management tree swing cartoon[1]. We can almost replace the project with China within this cartoon lol. 1.http://www.zentao.pm/file.php?f=201712/f_2a1ca764ce384a33d056f8256f6a1ce5&t=jpg&o=&s=&v=1512957254 http://www.zentao.pm/file.php?f=201712/f_2a1ca764ce384a33d05... edit: I read some of your other comments and I dont think you know China as much as you imagined you know. There's news about Belgian police shot a refugee child for example. I wont based on that to say all belgian kills refugee children. So treat news from China as news if you dont mind. More extreme things happen within a population of 1.5 billion.
tempguy9999 7y ago
> Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs? As one raised in a democracy (the UK) and thankful for that, taking a big step back I don't know if democracy is a more stable system than others. Or even better in terms of long-term results. I wonder if our democracy is mainly the result of cheap energy which removed the hardscrabble existence of our ancestors and will go when cheap energy finishes (if we don't pull our socks up). It's a contentious point, I'm not sure it's right, and I'm not punting for china. Just raising a question. NB my father was born and raised in a military country with an oppressive government. Hearing some stories from him is why I know how fortunate I am.
- repolfx 7y ago
  taking a big step back I don't know if democracy is a more stable system than others. Or even better in terms of long-term results I wonder what sort of education you've had? I can easily and quickly think of dictatorships that killed or enslaved millions of their own citizens - it's practically a requirement to be a really good dictatorship, it seems. It's a struggle to think of any democracies which do that. Perhaps the Israel/Palestine conflict has shades of that, perhaps internment of Japanese in America during WW2 counts a bit, but it ended pretty fast and was due to a war. I'm gonna take a wild guess that your current lack of faith in democracy is caused by Brexit. Am I right?
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    :) Please note the bit about my father. But yours a very good point! So what do I mean? It depends on the word 'better' and 'stable'. 'stable' is easily covered - chinese society has existed in a stable form for thousands of years. There's no evidence that any democracy has, because democracy as I know it is a relatively recent thing. Yeah, greeks and democracy, but they also kept slaves so no. 'better'? Well, what do you mean by that. I suppose on reflection I was equating that with stable, so if you accept that then I've already covered it, and feudalism/totalitarianism/authoritarianism is perhaps 'better'. A stable society at the cost of individual happiness. You define 'better' as equivalent to human rights, which I agree with, however my point is, be clear with your definitions of pivotal words! That's all. And I should have been so as well. To be clear I'm not advocating nor would wish to live under, such regimes. (and the brexit shite is a train wreck, and I am losing some faith in people who voted for brexit based on xenophobia and ignorance. I've met both sorts so I know they exist).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

gcb0 7y ago

I sense from your post that you confuse democracy with capitalism. Also Brazil and Russia are not democratic (right now). Neither have a democratically elected leader.

theseadroid 7y ago
oh so the current presidents of Brazil is not democratically elected you mean[1]? And how would you assure a democratic China will not have a corrupted election scheme that resemble Russia's? Without you stating any evidence, I dare to say your sense is wrong. Chinese are more than ready for capitalism if the current system is not already it. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Brazilian_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Brazilian_general_electio...
- gcb0 7y ago
  Yes. Two other candidates were illegally prevented from participating. And there were more fake news campaigns in brazil, where whatsapp is the de facto communication medium, than USA during the election. "Lula’s criminal conviction on corruption charges last year came under highly suspicious circumstances. All year long, polls showed him as the clear front-runner for the 2018 presidential race [...] Ever since, Lula has been held in a makeshift prison cell inside a Federal Police building in Curitiba [...] An electoral court then barred Lula’s candidacy for president. Barring Lula from running as a candidate paved the way for the election of the far-right extremist Jair Bolsonaro" https://theintercept.com/2019/05/22/lula-brazil-ex-president-prison-interview/ https://theintercept.com/2019/05/22/lula-brazil-ex-president...

komali2 7y ago

I hear you and understand you, but your argument is essentially nullified by the existence of Taiwan. We have proof positive that the Chinese culture is not only compatible with democracy, it flourishes beneath it.

theseadroid 7y ago
I'm not saying Chinese culture is incompatible with democracy. I'm talking about eduction mainly. If you look into post WWII histories of Taiwan/South Korea, it wont be hard for you to find a few dictators within the democracies[1]. I personally think during those periods the citizens of those democracies were catching up on how democracy works. 1. examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek
- komali2 7y ago
  Could not fantastic education provide an intelligent enough population to handle democracy within a single generation? I.e.... exactly what happened in Taiwan upon the removal of martial law? The USA managed it swaths of the country spread across a frontier.
  - theseadroid 7y ago
    But you have to admit there are risks for the switching, i.e. there are countries that become worse after the switching. Personally, I dont think democracy is the cure to the current problems. Education probably is. And I haven't been presented with enough evidence to think otherwise. Like, did Taiwan become drastic better after removal of martial laws? Or is Taiwan at a better position today mainly because of the help of U.S.? Is there any other third world democratic countries that have developed as fast or faster than China, who is NOT a U.S. ally?
    - repolfx 7y ago
      Which democracy are you thinking of that 'became worse after switching'? I can't think of any, though I can think of a few countries that mostly botched the switch and ended up in a sort of pseudo-democracy.

NicoJuicy 7y ago

Different question, when we talk about China ( which is mostly incompatible with Western as superpower, because of the differences between society and disruption through state capitalism). I am always a little bit concerned about how it comes across for a Chinese person, because I do not want to offend them. And most of my points are about Xi's rule ( and actually somewhat cautious about it going globally). Can you enlight me on "what is happening now", if you are offended in a personal way or is it obvious that there is a difference?

theseadroid 7y ago
Sorry but I think your first paragraph is not complete? when we talk about China () then? Generally speaking I wont get offended as long as the discussion is rational and logical. Me personally dont care much about country or patriotism. But Chinese are like any other populations, each individual can be quite different. I'm not really in the loop of what is happening now but I do think sometimes only (trade?) wars can resolve unbridgeable misunderstandings.
- NicoJuicy 7y ago
  Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. And when we talk about China = all the stuff that has been going on lately, comments here are not pro Xi mostly.
  - theseadroid 7y ago
    Thank you for being curious. What I found offending on HN is people who are cool-headed within their own domain can be irrational and quick to conclusions when it comes to issues related to China. We all know the project management tree swing cartoon[1]. We can almost replace the project with China within this cartoon lol. 1.http://www.zentao.pm/file.php?f=201712/f_2a1ca764ce384a33d056f8256f6a1ce5&t=jpg&o=&s=&v=1512957254 http://www.zentao.pm/file.php?f=201712/f_2a1ca764ce384a33d05... edit: I read some of your other comments and I dont think you know China as much as you imagined you know. There's news about Belgian police shot a refugee child for example. I wont based on that to say all belgian kills refugee children. So treat news from China as news if you dont mind. More extreme things happen within a population of 1.5 billion.

tempguy9999 7y ago

> Maybe there's a third option aside from continue the state quo or convert fully into a democracy? Maybe the party can evolve into something that's more and more benevolent to the people it governs? As one raised in a democracy (the UK) and thankful for that, taking a big step back I don't know if democracy is a more stable system than others. Or even better in terms of long-term results. I wonder if our democracy is mainly the result of cheap energy which removed the hardscrabble existence of our ancestors and will go when cheap energy finishes (if we don't pull our socks up). It's a contentious point, I'm not sure it's right, and I'm not punting for china. Just raising a question. NB my father was born and raised in a military country with an oppressive government. Hearing some stories from him is why I know how fortunate I am.

repolfx 7y ago
taking a big step back I don't know if democracy is a more stable system than others. Or even better in terms of long-term results I wonder what sort of education you've had? I can easily and quickly think of dictatorships that killed or enslaved millions of their own citizens - it's practically a requirement to be a really good dictatorship, it seems. It's a struggle to think of any democracies which do that. Perhaps the Israel/Palestine conflict has shades of that, perhaps internment of Japanese in America during WW2 counts a bit, but it ended pretty fast and was due to a war. I'm gonna take a wild guess that your current lack of faith in democracy is caused by Brexit. Am I right?
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  :) Please note the bit about my father. But yours a very good point! So what do I mean? It depends on the word 'better' and 'stable'. 'stable' is easily covered - chinese society has existed in a stable form for thousands of years. There's no evidence that any democracy has, because democracy as I know it is a relatively recent thing. Yeah, greeks and democracy, but they also kept slaves so no. 'better'? Well, what do you mean by that. I suppose on reflection I was equating that with stable, so if you accept that then I've already covered it, and feudalism/totalitarianism/authoritarianism is perhaps 'better'. A stable society at the cost of individual happiness. You define 'better' as equivalent to human rights, which I agree with, however my point is, be clear with your definitions of pivotal words! That's all. And I should have been so as well. To be clear I'm not advocating nor would wish to live under, such regimes. (and the brexit shite is a train wreck, and I am losing some faith in people who voted for brexit based on xenophobia and ignorance. I've met both sorts so I know they exist).