7 ms·

Hey guys its cool to see that you like my project. Unfortunately these types of things happen to independent contractors often and theres not a whole lot you ca

Hey guys its cool to see that you like my project. Unfortunately these types of things happen to independent contractors often and theres not a whole lot you can do about it but learn from mistakes. I used some awesome tech for the first time in this one like react-native-web which is now in Expo and react-spring for those sexy animations. Im happy for any of you guys to use this project as a boilerplate, learn some stuff from it or make fun of my code

olliej 7y ago
Have you ever seen mike monteiro’s “fuck you pay me” talk? Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid you could always have dmca’d them when they deployed. But that’s the vindictive side of me :D
- daveFNbuck 7y ago
  The client pivoted, so there won't be a deployment.
  - tuananh 7y ago
    that's what he said :D
    - daveFNbuck 7y ago
      What I was responding to: > you could always have dmca’d them when they deployed
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid Why would this matter? If he's not paid, what validity does the contract have?
  - olliej 7y ago
    My understanding is essentially people have contracts that essentially assign ownership of the copyright at point of completion rather that at the point payment. In the monteiro talk he says that a lot of companies have default contracts for contractors, and say things to the effect of "it's just our standard contract there's nothing to worry about", IIRC he gives examples of contemporary contracts that require delivery on floppy disks. But also they try to have terms that essentially say all the work belongs to them, and you will be paid on completion. e.g. if you don't finish the work - or they claim you did not (by applying feature creep offensively, etc). Then because you didn't finish they don't owe you money. The other approach is that they fail to pay, you can't use (for example) the DMCA to pull down their site, or bring copyright violation suit against them because the IP already belongs to them. All you can do is sue for owed money but you don't have the leverage of stopping them using your IP, because it's not your IP anymore. That is my understanding from his talk anyway - IANAL, and also I haven't done contract work myself (that's what my wife used to do, and she had a default contract produced by her own lawyer)
  - camjohnson26 7y ago
    The expectation of payment is legally binding
  - Thrymr 7y ago
    That's really a question for lawyers to answer with regards to the specific contract.
    - imjustsaying 7y ago
      Lawyers do not have the sole ability to answer such questions. I learned contract law from a business professor who wasn't a lawyer.
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    Absent the contract copyright would naturally remain with the author. The contract needs to be valid for it to be transferred to the business.
  - 7y ago
- kbenson 7y ago
  That's an awesome talk.[1] It's one of those ones that you can see once, and whenever a particular topic is brought up (in this case non-payment of a contract) you immediately remember multiple parts of it, even a decade later. To be clear, this is a strong second endorsement. 1: https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1 https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1
lenova 7y ago
As a freelancer, always get a 50% upfront payment before starting a project.
- futureastronaut 7y ago
  I much prefer billing by hours/days with clear payment terms in the MSA, and iterative delivery,. Clients understand that if they don't pay, they're not going to get much. Project-based estimates with up-front payment probably is good for clients unfamiliar with software development processes, but I avoid projects like those.
  - plotteddancer16 7y ago
    What about something like $10k up front and then you invoice for the hours past that?
    - milesdyson_phd 7y ago
      So essentially retainer billing.
jammygit 7y ago
How common as a ballpark percent? I’m asking because I’m trying to decide whether to try some contracting this year or not
- nfriedly 7y ago
  The more you charge, the less likely it is to happen. Also, requiring some money up front before you begin weeds out many of the worst clients. Early on, it might be 10% of your clients that try to not pay. As you gain more experience, you can weed these clients out through a combination of the aforementioned things and just getting a better "feel" for when to turn down a job. Or do like I did and end up working full-time for a client that does pay well. That brought my non-payment rate down to 0%.
- the_duke 7y ago
  That can't be answered in a ballpark figure. It heavily depends on the kind work and the clients you target and accept. Some tips: * always demand partial payment up front (usually 20-50%, depending on contract size and length) * set milestones with additional payment required upon completion (for bigger jobs) * have a contract that only transfers usage rights and copyright upon final payment You can always get screwed over or have bad luck (client goes bankrupt, ...), but some prudence in selecting work goes a long way. When starting, I learned to stay away from anything gambling and real estate related.
- dopeboy 7y ago
  Personal data point - in my six years of doing this (not fulltime), zero. You can mitigate this risk in the following ways: * Focus on taking in referrals; you're less likely to get hosed if you know a way back to them. * Fixed contract + payment plan. As much as you can, negotiate one and have everyone sign it. * Get clients in your geographic proximity. Spend a lot (say, 3 hours) of unbilled time with them in advance of closing a deal. This gives each party a chance to suss out the other. As with the first bullet point, you're less likely to get scammed because you probably know where they work.
halleonard 7y ago
You definitely picked a good tech stack! Code is ideal.
rambo4 7y ago
Never start working without a 75% advance payment, which should cover all costs with a small profit
leke 7y ago
What did you learn from this mistake? Whose idea was it to use react-native-web?
- trillcyborg 7y ago
  It was my friends. We always try to learn new things. Its been really nice to work with. I recommend it
t0s 7y ago
Happened to me before so I can really feel your frustration. What I have learned, because it's not always easy to ask for 50% upfront, is to split the project into many phases and ask for payment when a phase is implemented. Hope you won't have to deal with a client like that in the future.
dopeboy 7y ago
These things unfortunately happen. I hope you don't get discouraged - plenty of fish and all that.

olliej 7y ago

Have you ever seen mike monteiro’s “fuck you pay me” talk? Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid you could always have dmca’d them when they deployed. But that’s the vindictive side of me :D

daveFNbuck 7y ago
The client pivoted, so there won't be a deployment.
- tuananh 7y ago
  that's what he said :D
  - daveFNbuck 7y ago
    What I was responding to: > you could always have dmca’d them when they deployed
thaumasiotes 7y ago
> Assuming that your contract leaves you with copyright until you’re paid Why would this matter? If he's not paid, what validity does the contract have?
- olliej 7y ago
  My understanding is essentially people have contracts that essentially assign ownership of the copyright at point of completion rather that at the point payment. In the monteiro talk he says that a lot of companies have default contracts for contractors, and say things to the effect of "it's just our standard contract there's nothing to worry about", IIRC he gives examples of contemporary contracts that require delivery on floppy disks. But also they try to have terms that essentially say all the work belongs to them, and you will be paid on completion. e.g. if you don't finish the work - or they claim you did not (by applying feature creep offensively, etc). Then because you didn't finish they don't owe you money. The other approach is that they fail to pay, you can't use (for example) the DMCA to pull down their site, or bring copyright violation suit against them because the IP already belongs to them. All you can do is sue for owed money but you don't have the leverage of stopping them using your IP, because it's not your IP anymore. That is my understanding from his talk anyway - IANAL, and also I haven't done contract work myself (that's what my wife used to do, and she had a default contract produced by her own lawyer)
- camjohnson26 7y ago
  The expectation of payment is legally binding
- Thrymr 7y ago
  That's really a question for lawyers to answer with regards to the specific contract.
  - imjustsaying 7y ago
    Lawyers do not have the sole ability to answer such questions. I learned contract law from a business professor who wasn't a lawyer.
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  Absent the contract copyright would naturally remain with the author. The contract needs to be valid for it to be transferred to the business.
- 7y ago
kbenson 7y ago
That's an awesome talk.[1] It's one of those ones that you can see once, and whenever a particular topic is brought up (in this case non-payment of a contract) you immediately remember multiple parts of it, even a decade later. To be clear, this is a strong second endorsement. 1: https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1 https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1

lenova 7y ago

As a freelancer, always get a 50% upfront payment before starting a project.

futureastronaut 7y ago
I much prefer billing by hours/days with clear payment terms in the MSA, and iterative delivery,. Clients understand that if they don't pay, they're not going to get much. Project-based estimates with up-front payment probably is good for clients unfamiliar with software development processes, but I avoid projects like those.
- plotteddancer16 7y ago
  What about something like $10k up front and then you invoice for the hours past that?
  - milesdyson_phd 7y ago
    So essentially retainer billing.

jammygit 7y ago

How common as a ballpark percent? I’m asking because I’m trying to decide whether to try some contracting this year or not

nfriedly 7y ago
The more you charge, the less likely it is to happen. Also, requiring some money up front before you begin weeds out many of the worst clients. Early on, it might be 10% of your clients that try to not pay. As you gain more experience, you can weed these clients out through a combination of the aforementioned things and just getting a better "feel" for when to turn down a job. Or do like I did and end up working full-time for a client that does pay well. That brought my non-payment rate down to 0%.
the_duke 7y ago
That can't be answered in a ballpark figure. It heavily depends on the kind work and the clients you target and accept. Some tips: * always demand partial payment up front (usually 20-50%, depending on contract size and length) * set milestones with additional payment required upon completion (for bigger jobs) * have a contract that only transfers usage rights and copyright upon final payment You can always get screwed over or have bad luck (client goes bankrupt, ...), but some prudence in selecting work goes a long way. When starting, I learned to stay away from anything gambling and real estate related.
dopeboy 7y ago
Personal data point - in my six years of doing this (not fulltime), zero. You can mitigate this risk in the following ways: * Focus on taking in referrals; you're less likely to get hosed if you know a way back to them. * Fixed contract + payment plan. As much as you can, negotiate one and have everyone sign it. * Get clients in your geographic proximity. Spend a lot (say, 3 hours) of unbilled time with them in advance of closing a deal. This gives each party a chance to suss out the other. As with the first bullet point, you're less likely to get scammed because you probably know where they work.

halleonard 7y ago

You definitely picked a good tech stack! Code is ideal.

rambo4 7y ago

Never start working without a 75% advance payment, which should cover all costs with a small profit

leke 7y ago

What did you learn from this mistake? Whose idea was it to use react-native-web?

trillcyborg 7y ago
It was my friends. We always try to learn new things. Its been really nice to work with. I recommend it

t0s 7y ago

Happened to me before so I can really feel your frustration. What I have learned, because it's not always easy to ask for 50% upfront, is to split the project into many phases and ask for payment when a phase is implemented. Hope you won't have to deal with a client like that in the future.

dopeboy 7y ago

These things unfortunately happen. I hope you don't get discouraged - plenty of fish and all that.