6 ms·

"Harper presented to the leadership committee and they were confused." Is 'they' referring to Harper or the leadership committee?

draw_down 7y ago
Why would it refer to Harper?
CiPHPerCoder 7y ago
Clearly "they" refers to the recipient of this sentence. /s Unlike e.g. German, English doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun to use. The only one that fits naturally in most peoples' conversation (and doesn't sound like something uttered by a science fiction-inspired cult) is "singular they".
- b3orn 7y ago
  The gender neutral singular pronoun in German "es" is the same as the english "it". And it would be weird to apply it to a person in both languages.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ernst_klim 7y ago
  >Unlike e.g. German, English doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun to use. What German pronoun are you talking about?
  - CiPHPerCoder 7y ago
    My German is very rusty. I was thinking of the different gendered language bits in general rather than pronouns in particular.
    - ernst_klim 7y ago
      Which bits? In German Er is used for such purposes.
      - CiPHPerCoder 7y ago
        Me: says something You: points out I'm wrong Me: concedes I'm mistaken You: continues to question me Why?
wbronitsky 7y ago
Exactly what point are you making here?
sparky_z 7y ago
It's true that there is an ambiguity in this particular sentence you've constructed. But that's always going to be possibile when pronouns are involved. Just pick two subjects that share a pronoun, put them in the same sentence, and then use the pronoun. Uh oh! What if "Harper" were the name of a company? Rejecting singular "they" wouldn't save you then. I would propose that whatever remedy you would suggest for the "Harper Inc." case, you go ahead and apply to this one as well.
- ibejoeb 7y ago
  I think the point is that the author of the piece has also constructed sentences wherein the ambiguity can be argued away. That doesn't make it more useful, though. Replacing "he" and "she" with "they" both removes information and introduces an ambiguity in number. downvoter: am I wrong?
paxys 7y ago
"Harper presented to Jake and he was confused." Which one is 'he' referring to? Exact same ambiguity.
- bargl 7y ago
  "Harper presented to Jessica and she was confused." vs "Harper presented to Jessica and they were confused." "Harper presented to James and he was confused." vs "Harper presented to James and they were confused." "Harper presented to Sam and he was confused." vs "Harper presented to Sam and they were confused." "Harper presented to Sam and she was confused." vs "Harper presented to Sam and they were confused." "Harper presented to the board and they were confused." vs "Harper presented to the board and they were confused." I'm all for calling people what they want but to assume that it doesn't add context in a lot of situations isn't accurate either. Better practice (imo) would be to use peoples names more. "Harper presented to Jessica and Jessica was confused." "Harper presented to James and James was confused." "Harper presented to Sam and Sam was confused." "Harper presented to Sam and Harper was confused." "Harper presented to the board and the board was confused."
  - sonnyblarney 7y ago
    Disagree. It's reasonable to assume that Jessica is 'she' and that James is a 'he'. It's reasonable to assume the board is 'they'. We don't need to contort language to accommodate situations that hardly happen in a lifetime. Sam, Jamie - sure. But Jessica, James, we know. Someone who refers to themselves as 'Jessica' but also identifies as male is making a choice to contradict social conventions, which is perfectly fine and entirely their (pun intended?) right, but it's not our responsibility to have to keep up. If in context we know gender, then cool, if not, Jessica will be confused for a female.
    - Pfhreak 7y ago
      James is more gender neutral than you think. (I can't speak for Jessica.)
  - function_seven 7y ago

draw_down 7y ago

Why would it refer to Harper?

CiPHPerCoder 7y ago

Clearly "they" refers to the recipient of this sentence. /s Unlike e.g. German, English doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun to use. The only one that fits naturally in most peoples' conversation (and doesn't sound like something uttered by a science fiction-inspired cult) is "singular they".

b3orn 7y ago
The gender neutral singular pronoun in German "es" is the same as the english "it". And it would be weird to apply it to a person in both languages.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ernst_klim 7y ago
>Unlike e.g. German, English doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun to use. What German pronoun are you talking about?
- CiPHPerCoder 7y ago
  My German is very rusty. I was thinking of the different gendered language bits in general rather than pronouns in particular.
  - ernst_klim 7y ago
    Which bits? In German Er is used for such purposes.
    - CiPHPerCoder 7y ago
      Me: says something You: points out I'm wrong Me: concedes I'm mistaken You: continues to question me Why?

wbronitsky 7y ago

Exactly what point are you making here?

sparky_z 7y ago

It's true that there is an ambiguity in this particular sentence you've constructed. But that's always going to be possibile when pronouns are involved. Just pick two subjects that share a pronoun, put them in the same sentence, and then use the pronoun. Uh oh! What if "Harper" were the name of a company? Rejecting singular "they" wouldn't save you then. I would propose that whatever remedy you would suggest for the "Harper Inc." case, you go ahead and apply to this one as well.

ibejoeb 7y ago
I think the point is that the author of the piece has also constructed sentences wherein the ambiguity can be argued away. That doesn't make it more useful, though. Replacing "he" and "she" with "they" both removes information and introduces an ambiguity in number. downvoter: am I wrong?

paxys 7y ago

"Harper presented to Jake and he was confused." Which one is 'he' referring to? Exact same ambiguity.

bargl 7y ago
"Harper presented to Jessica and she was confused." vs "Harper presented to Jessica and they were confused." "Harper presented to James and he was confused." vs "Harper presented to James and they were confused." "Harper presented to Sam and he was confused." vs "Harper presented to Sam and they were confused." "Harper presented to Sam and she was confused." vs "Harper presented to Sam and they were confused." "Harper presented to the board and they were confused." vs "Harper presented to the board and they were confused." I'm all for calling people what they want but to assume that it doesn't add context in a lot of situations isn't accurate either. Better practice (imo) would be to use peoples names more. "Harper presented to Jessica and Jessica was confused." "Harper presented to James and James was confused." "Harper presented to Sam and Sam was confused." "Harper presented to Sam and Harper was confused." "Harper presented to the board and the board was confused."
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  Disagree. It's reasonable to assume that Jessica is 'she' and that James is a 'he'. It's reasonable to assume the board is 'they'. We don't need to contort language to accommodate situations that hardly happen in a lifetime. Sam, Jamie - sure. But Jessica, James, we know. Someone who refers to themselves as 'Jessica' but also identifies as male is making a choice to contradict social conventions, which is perfectly fine and entirely their (pun intended?) right, but it's not our responsibility to have to keep up. If in context we know gender, then cool, if not, Jessica will be confused for a female.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    James is more gender neutral than you think. (I can't speak for Jessica.)
- function_seven 7y ago