6 ms·
Singular “they” and the many reasons why it’s correct (2009)
- baggy_trough 7y agoIn my dialect of English, singular they works well for unspecified third persons, but very badly for specific ones.
- Pfhreak 7y agoWhat dialect of English is that?
- forbin_meet_hal 7y ago"Harper presented to the leadership committee and they were confused." Is 'they' referring to Harper or the leadership committee?
- draw_down 7y agoWhy would it refer to Harper?
- CiPHPerCoder 7y agoClearly "they" refers to the recipient of this sentence. /s Unlike e.g. German, English doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun to use. The only one that fits naturally in most peoples' conversation (and doesn't sound like something uttered by a science fiction-inspired cult) is "singular they".
- b3orn 7y agoThe gender neutral singular pronoun in German "es" is the same as the english "it". And it would be weird to apply it to a person in both languages.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ernst_klim 7y ago>Unlike e.g. German, English doesn't have a gender neutral singular pronoun to use. What German pronoun are you talking about?
- CiPHPerCoder 7y agoMy German is very rusty. I was thinking of the different gendered language bits in general rather than pronouns in particular.
- ernst_klim 7y agoWhich bits? In German Er is used for such purposes.
- CiPHPerCoder 7y agoMe: says something You: points out I'm wrong Me: concedes I'm mistaken You: continues to question me Why?
- wbronitsky 7y agoExactly what point are you making here?
- sparky_z 7y agoIt's true that there is an ambiguity in this particular sentence you've constructed. But that's always going to be possibile when pronouns are involved. Just pick two subjects that share a pronoun, put them in the same sentence, and then use the pronoun. Uh oh! What if "Harper" were the name of a company? Rejecting singular "they" wouldn't save you then. I would propose that whatever remedy you would suggest for the "Harper Inc." case, you go ahead and apply to this one as well.
- ibejoeb 7y agoI think the point is that the author of the piece has also constructed sentences wherein the ambiguity can be argued away. That doesn't make it more useful, though. Replacing "he" and "she" with "they" both removes information and introduces an ambiguity in number. downvoter: am I wrong?
- paxys 7y ago"Harper presented to Jake and he was confused." Which one is 'he' referring to? Exact same ambiguity.
- bargl 7y ago"Harper presented to Jessica and she was confused." vs "Harper presented to Jessica and they were confused." "Harper presented to James and he was confused." vs "Harper presented to James and they were confused." "Harper presented to Sam and he was confused." vs "Harper presented to Sam and they were confused." "Harper presented to Sam and she was confused." vs "Harper presented to Sam and they were confused." "Harper presented to the board and they were confused." vs "Harper presented to the board and they were confused." I'm all for calling people what they want but to assume that it doesn't add context in a lot of situations isn't accurate either. Better practice (imo) would be to use peoples names more. "Harper presented to Jessica and Jessica was confused." "Harper presented to James and James was confused." "Harper presented to Sam and Sam was confused." "Harper presented to Sam and Harper was confused." "Harper presented to the board and the board was confused."
- sonnyblarney 7y agoDisagree. It's reasonable to assume that Jessica is 'she' and that James is a 'he'. It's reasonable to assume the board is 'they'. We don't need to contort language to accommodate situations that hardly happen in a lifetime. Sam, Jamie - sure. But Jessica, James, we know. Someone who refers to themselves as 'Jessica' but also identifies as male is making a choice to contradict social conventions, which is perfectly fine and entirely their (pun intended?) right, but it's not our responsibility to have to keep up. If in context we know gender, then cool, if not, Jessica will be confused for a female.
- Pfhreak 7y agoJames is more gender neutral than you think. (I can't speak for Jessica.)
- function_seven 7y ago
- deburo 7y agoThe first 3 paragraphs could've been skipped. It really starts at: "I’ve wanted for some time to have one place to send everyone who complains about singular they".
- Skunkleton 7y ago> “She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes.” I fall into category C: Native English speaker who has no idea how to use English properly. Could someone please explain what is supposedly wrong with this sentence?
- grardb 7y agoI suppose for people opposed to the singular "they," the "correct" way to write this would be something like: > “She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in one's clothes.” or: > “She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in his or her clothes.”
- furgooswft13 7y agoI don't get it. "their" in this sentence clearly refers to "everybody", which is plural.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- grardb 7y agoThe post goes into some detail about this. "Everybody" is semantically plural, but its verbs are conjugated as singular: Everybody is, everybody has, everybody does, etc.
- clarle 7y ago"everybody" refers to a group of people, but the word itself is singular and would typically use singular verb forms. In day-to-day English, I've seen people use it both ways though.
- ZeroGravitas 7y ago
- ravenstine 7y agoI've gotten used to saying "they" when referring to people I don't know. When it comes to people I do know, I prefer "he" and "her" because it still provides context when referring to multiple people while saving on syllables. But I think it's a good thing not to immediately assume gender when referring to someone(one doesn't know) in an occupational role so we get out of the habit of thinking of nurses as "she", for instance. I really appreciate someone pointing out that "they" is perfectly adequate. Ze and zir are still gendered, and extraterrestrial genders at that.
- scrollaway 7y ago> I really appreciate someone pointing out that "they" is perfectly adequate. Ze and zir are still gendered, and extraterrestrial genders at that. I've always been really confused at these weird attempts at pseudo-gender-neutral pronouns when "they" exists. It's like… I'm not a native English speaker. I learned about "they"-as-singular in English year 2. How do native English speakers not know about it? How do you get to "zir" before you learn about something this basic?
- i_am_proteus 7y agoMany native English speakers don't know about it because it was technically incorrect when they were taught English ("he" was both gender-neutral and male), and sort of still is, even though language evolves and the gender-neutral-singular "they" has certainly entered the common parlance.
- cyphar 7y agoThe singular "they" has been in use since the 14th century[1]. But there are plenty of people who speak English as a second language, where their mother tongue has gendered nouns (which includes effectively all European languages except English) -- so it's very hard for them to get over the mental hurdle of having to constantly reference gender in speech. For instance, in Serbian (my mother tongue) you cannot speak in a gender-neutral way because all verbs have different suffixes depending on the gender of the subject. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
- Liquix 7y agoHas anyone been disputing the continued use of 'they' in referring to a person of unknown gender? I was under the impression that the recent controversy surrounding the word is linked to the LGBTQ movement.
- CiPHPerCoder 7y ago> I was under the impression that the recent controversy surrounding the word is linked to the LGBTQ movement. Nobody I know in the LGBTQ community takes issue with "singular they". In fact, many of my close non-binary friends prefer they/them.
- grardb 7y agoI think Liquix is referring to the inverse scenario, which is people outside the LGBTQ community refusing to use "they" to refer to someone who prefers they/them.
- thebooktocome 7y agoNot really. Prescriptivists have been fighting singular they since the Victorian era. https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they...
- GoodJokes 7y agoEver met an angry old white man?
- DennisP 7y agoThe part that throws me is verbs. "They want to go for a walk." If we're referring to just one person then it seems it should be "they wants to go for a walk." It sounds horribly wrong but do we really want plural verb forms to also be singular sometimes? Historically, I guess that's how we've always done it. But now, for people who prefer non-gender-specific pronouns, does it make sense to use plural verb forms when describing their actions, and singular verb forms for everybody else? Won't that get confusing sometimes? Maybe we should bite the bullet and start treating singular "they" as singular.
- zzo38computer 7y agoNo; singular "they" and singular "you" are both grammatically plural. However, if you are using it as singular it is still "yourself" rather than "yourselves", so, it should also be "themself" rather than "themselves" if it is being used as singular.
- DennisP 7y agoMakes sense. "Themself" doesn't sound bad to me, really.
- perfmode 7y agoDo you wants to go, too?
- DennisP 7y agoHeh good point. Thanks for helping me adjust to modern society.
- function_seven 7y agoWell now I'm wondering why we have the singular version of the verb. "He want to go on a walk" doesn't sound so bad to me. Only slightly jarring, but also an already common construction in some vernaculars.
- ernst_klim 7y agohttps://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html Can somebody explain, what's wrong with `he' referring to a person of unknown sex? At least in German (er) and in Russian (он) masculine pronoun is still being used for that purpose.
- crooked-v 7y agoTwo reasons: first, it contributes to general presumptions of male-ness as the societal default and female-ness being out of place, and second, using either gender as the default in English just plain sounds weirder and more jarring than "they" in a variety of sentence constructions. For the second factor, the example sentence presented first in the original article: > She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in their clothes. ...sounds pretty jarring when you make it 'he'... > She kept her head and kicked her shoes off, as everybody ought to do who falls into deep water in his clothes.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ajkjk 7y agoIt just.. doesn't mean that in English. It doesn't sound right, like in the examples in this article.
- ernst_klim 7y agoDoesn't mean what? Generic he doesn't exist in English? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-person_pronoun#Generic_he https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-person_pronoun#Generic_h...
- ajkjk 7y agoYou know perfectly well what I meant. It is never genderless. The quote from the article makes that obvious: "At the funeral, everyone was dressed to the nines, each wearing his swankest tie or nicest dress." When it's used generically, it is still casting all the antecedents to males.
- jMyles 7y agoAlthough this essay is interesting and amusing (and a great rebuttal to many of the sillier objections to singular they), it does not address the main objection I hear (and the one that I find compelling enough to ask that people not use "they" for me): I present to you as a singular entity. I find it disempowering to be addressed with a pronoun that might be understood as plural, as if you might address some of the needs of the multitudes within me but not others. I very much prefer to be addressed with a different pronoun if I'm being addressed alone versus when I'm being addressed in a group. Is that so weird? Now, on the other hand, I think that gendered pronouns are downright idiotic. So the pronoun that I've come to prefer is simply "it." I call many wonderful living things (think of an elderly redwood tree) "it" all the time, and it doesn't seem to bother the three nor anyone else. If it's good enough for it, it's good enough for me.
- progval 7y ago"You" is grammatically plural as well, its singular form is/was "thou". But now everyone sees it as a valid pronoun to refer to a single person.
- jMyles 7y agoI always use y'all for second person plural.
- progval 7y agoMaybe one day, "y'all" will take the place of "you" as both singular and plural pronoun
- NeedMoreTea 7y agoWhere once the singular was thee and thou forms, you and they developed singular use in parallel with each other hundreds of years ago. For some reason, presumably connected with its use as non-gendered pronoun, there's only fuss made about they.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Pfhreak 7y agoI use singular they, and used it through tech interviewing and onboarding recently. It was a real challenge trying to figure out whether I wanted to use singular they during the interview. Correcting an interviewer or recruiter when they get your pronouns wrong is scary (on top of the anxiety that is programming job interviews.) Over the years in tech I've found all sorts of different responses to me sharing my pronouns -- mostly people being supportive and a bit forgetful. But also people saying some unnecessarily cruel things, or going out of their way to say, "I DON'T HAVE TO RESPECT THAT!". I've had people tell me, "Yes, fine, I'll acquiesce. But you should know you are wrong and I'm lying to you every time I use singular they." Ok, sure, but we're colleagues and I'm just letting you know that's what I'd prefer? You can also always just use my name. I'm not going to go to HR if you get it wrong, I'm not going to get mad. I might remind you, but the reminder will be gentle and not accusatory. Why so much aggro?
- ajkjk 7y agoHow do you feel about "I'll try, but I'll probably screw it up because I'm really not used to this -- sorry in advance." I kinda feel like I have to say something like that as a hedge. It helps prevent some of the anxiety about messing up.
- Pfhreak 7y agoTotally reasonable to me? Look, at the end of the day we're all humans and many of us were raised with the idea that singular they was weird or wrong. I get it, you've been wired to default to he or she. I have absolutely zero concerns if that sometimes slips and you make a quick correction and move on. What I take note of are the folks who either make no effort to try or folks who deliberately refuse to use singular they for me. Someone who is trying and getting it wrong sometimes is someone who is trying to support me, which I always appreciate. Just don't be obsequious when you get it wrong -- I don't need a 3 minute speech about how you really support trans people and you have a trans member of your extended family and how important it is for you and others to get this right. I've had people spend literally 10 minutes on apologies after one slip up.
- avmich 7y ago