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If we are taking a historical view, the US went through the whole cold war and came out as the winner after decades of spying, propaganda, meddling here and the

by hrktb 7y ago

If we are taking a historical view, the US went through the whole cold war and came out as the winner after decades of spying, propaganda, meddling here and there, anything that could give an advantage. All these mechanics are still there, those agencies are still running. I can’t imagine taking rose colored glasses and think the US and China are that different when the proverbial shit hits the fan.

reaperducer 7y ago
If we are taking a historical view We're not. People on HN like to rehash the past to bolster their arguments about the present, but they rarely mean anything. It's like how any time someone mentions Chinese IP theft, someone bring up something about steam engines from 200 years ago. The sins of the fathers ought not be visited upon the sons.
- ShorsHammer 7y ago
  Most intel people seem to admit that the US and certain EU nations use their spy agencies to bolster domestic companies. The US has been caught out repeatedly but do their best to hide it, France has been called out by a bunch of other countries as one of the worst offenders around. The Chinese are just shameless about it and couldn't are less what people think. Since historical arguments don't work for you here's proof of Australia bugging one of the poorest nations on Earth in the midst of an oil trade deal and passing along the information to a huge. The minister in charge at the time now works for that company with a very lucrative salary. The only reason we know this is because a high ranking agent first complained internally about limited resources being diverted away from anti-terror work in Indonesia. He then complained to the Intel Ombudsman and was again ignored. Then he went public. He's now had a trial going on for a decade, his lawyer is also being tried for taking on the case. https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/prosecution-of-witness-k-and-his-lawyer-is-a-disgraceful-act-of-revenge-20180701-p4zou5.html https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/prosecution-of-witne...
- jimclegg 7y ago
  >The sins of the fathers ought not be visited upon the sons. This idea only works if all parties believe in it. I don't think the majority of people on this planet believe groups should be able to go on economic crime sprees that affect large swathes of populations then allow rich offspring to live comfortably with zero economic consequences. I can see why this would be a desirable outcome for some but this feedback loop needs to remain intact to stop shenanigans.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hrktb 7y ago
  I think what happened 200 years ago is still relevant to the present (heck, 200 years ago we were full steam into colonialism and slavery, and no one would argue it has no lasting consequences anymore) But my argument is not about distant past. I think the US is not caught into widespread IT theft and other public scandals partly because it has experienced agencies with good operational knowledge. And partly because no one has been pushing the US enough to get into overt intelectual “war” against a country, but I feel we’re getting closer everyday. The day a country gets enough ahead of the US, we’ll get back to a public “us vs them” stance with stealing IP from that country becoming basically a patriotic feat, because you know, they’re the “ennemy”.

by hrktb 7y ago

reaperducer 7y ago

If we are taking a historical view We're not. People on HN like to rehash the past to bolster their arguments about the present, but they rarely mean anything. It's like how any time someone mentions Chinese IP theft, someone bring up something about steam engines from 200 years ago. The sins of the fathers ought not be visited upon the sons.

ShorsHammer 7y ago
Most intel people seem to admit that the US and certain EU nations use their spy agencies to bolster domestic companies. The US has been caught out repeatedly but do their best to hide it, France has been called out by a bunch of other countries as one of the worst offenders around. The Chinese are just shameless about it and couldn't are less what people think. Since historical arguments don't work for you here's proof of Australia bugging one of the poorest nations on Earth in the midst of an oil trade deal and passing along the information to a huge. The minister in charge at the time now works for that company with a very lucrative salary. The only reason we know this is because a high ranking agent first complained internally about limited resources being diverted away from anti-terror work in Indonesia. He then complained to the Intel Ombudsman and was again ignored. Then he went public. He's now had a trial going on for a decade, his lawyer is also being tried for taking on the case. https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/prosecution-of-witness-k-and-his-lawyer-is-a-disgraceful-act-of-revenge-20180701-p4zou5.html https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/prosecution-of-witne...
jimclegg 7y ago
>The sins of the fathers ought not be visited upon the sons. This idea only works if all parties believe in it. I don't think the majority of people on this planet believe groups should be able to go on economic crime sprees that affect large swathes of populations then allow rich offspring to live comfortably with zero economic consequences. I can see why this would be a desirable outcome for some but this feedback loop needs to remain intact to stop shenanigans.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hrktb 7y ago
I think what happened 200 years ago is still relevant to the present (heck, 200 years ago we were full steam into colonialism and slavery, and no one would argue it has no lasting consequences anymore) But my argument is not about distant past. I think the US is not caught into widespread IT theft and other public scandals partly because it has experienced agencies with good operational knowledge. And partly because no one has been pushing the US enough to get into overt intelectual “war” against a country, but I feel we’re getting closer everyday. The day a country gets enough ahead of the US, we’ll get back to a public “us vs them” stance with stealing IP from that country becoming basically a patriotic feat, because you know, they’re the “ennemy”.