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In terms of legal precedent this is pretty shaky ground. In any other context this would sound pretty far fetched. Would we allow a US company to circumvent sa

In terms of legal precedent this is pretty shaky ground. In any other context this would sound pretty far fetched. Would we allow a US company to circumvent sanctions on selling technology to refine nuclear material to Iran on the grounds that they might blow themselves up and poison US allies or Americans abroad? That's the legal context I'd view this argument in.

deepVoid 7y ago
This is different from selling nuclear technology to Iran. Android is open source (albeit not in the "real open source" way) and available to everyone. Anyone can fork it at its own will. Forking Android by a non-US company would give up the control of the OS on phones, which would threaten the US security.
- rubbingalcohol 7y ago
  It will give up control of the OS on phones that won't be sold in the US anyway. I'm not clear on how that will threaten the US security? Though it will no doubt threaten Google's profits and ability to benefit from their surveillance- and censorship-enabled search engine for the Chinese market. Our tech companies should not be lining up to lick the boots of a hostile economic power. I can't even believe this is socially acceptable and am relieved it's starting to become legally unacceptable.
  - deepVoid 7y ago
    If it would give up control of the OS on phones anyway and it would not threaten the US security, why did the US ban Google from providing Android updates to Huawei? It is the same logic why the US government bans Huawei, unless the US government ban Huawei for other reasons.
    - rubbingalcohol 7y ago
      Huawei does not play by the rules of other companies in the U.S. market. They steal our tech and sell it back to us for pennies on the dollar. China has been allowed to get away with this shit for decades and now we're supposed to feel sorry for them? Huawei needs to be completely shut out of the U.S. market and Google should be ashamed for working with China. This is a net benefit to U.S. security.
      - deepVoid 7y ago
        These accusations are unfounded and unsubstantiated. If they steal your tech, you should sue them in court. We, the US and other nations, run by the laws. You have all the rights to sue whoever steals your tech. Android is open source and available to everyone including Huawei. Huawei has every right to use it. Blatantly accusing someone of stealing with no evidence leads to libel and defamation.
        rubbingalcohol 7y ago
        Huawei provides a bounty program for stolen trade secrets: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-28/from-bounty-payments-to-espionage-u-s-alleges-chinese-ip-theft https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-28/from-boun... Many U.S. companies have been afraid to report Chinese IP theft due to fears about retaliation and stock price: https://www.npr.org/2019/04/12/711779130/as-china-hacked-u-s-businesses-turned-a-blind-eye https://www.npr.org/2019/04/12/711779130/as-china-hacked-u-s... Years back when I was still freelancing, I worked with a U.S. firm who sold specialized lightweight cases for a popular sporting product. Their Chinese manufacturer stole the tech, ignored the patent, sold the same product to the U.S. market at half the price and put my client out of business. These claims are not unfounded or unsubstantiated. There has been an ongoing pattern of abuse from China for decades and until recently nobody in our government was giving a shit about it.
        outworlder 7y ago
        > You have all the rights to sue whoever steals your tech If they are not under your jurisdiction, there's a limit on what can be done. Even if you win, your tech is already in other people's hands. > We, the US and other nations, run by the laws. On paper. Other nations don't do as much enforcement as you think – if at all.
  - Barrin92 7y ago
    >It will give up control of the OS on phones that won't be sold in the US anyway. I'm not clear on how that will threaten the US security? That's pretty straight forward, someone from the US exchanges information with someone who has a Huawei phone who is outside the US, someone who has imported a Huawei phone, or someone who is travelling / working in the US and has one. Which given that it's the number 1/2 phone maker in the world, is pretty likely
resoluteteeth 7y ago
This is a little bit different than Iran. The US government specifically does not want Iran to have access to nuclear technology, so preventing US companies from providing technology to Iran is in itself the goal. In the case of Huawei, the US government's concerns mostly seem to be about Huawei possibly spying on the devices they sell. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any particular basis for concern about allowing them to use US software such as android. Therefore, from the perspective of the security threat that is the putative basis for blacklisting Huawei, the fact that Huawei is now blocked from using Android is merely an incidental side effect. (Of course, if the real goal is to hold Huawei hostage as a means to negotiate a trade deal, then threatening to destroy their smartphone business by blocking them from using Android may be precisely what is really intended.)
- Ill_ban_myself 7y ago
  I know its not a great comparison but that's part of my point. The context and legal precedent in this arena mostly applies to arms and aid, not consumer products.

deepVoid 7y ago

This is different from selling nuclear technology to Iran. Android is open source (albeit not in the "real open source" way) and available to everyone. Anyone can fork it at its own will. Forking Android by a non-US company would give up the control of the OS on phones, which would threaten the US security.

rubbingalcohol 7y ago
It will give up control of the OS on phones that won't be sold in the US anyway. I'm not clear on how that will threaten the US security? Though it will no doubt threaten Google's profits and ability to benefit from their surveillance- and censorship-enabled search engine for the Chinese market. Our tech companies should not be lining up to lick the boots of a hostile economic power. I can't even believe this is socially acceptable and am relieved it's starting to become legally unacceptable.
- deepVoid 7y ago
  If it would give up control of the OS on phones anyway and it would not threaten the US security, why did the US ban Google from providing Android updates to Huawei? It is the same logic why the US government bans Huawei, unless the US government ban Huawei for other reasons.
  - rubbingalcohol 7y ago
    Huawei does not play by the rules of other companies in the U.S. market. They steal our tech and sell it back to us for pennies on the dollar. China has been allowed to get away with this shit for decades and now we're supposed to feel sorry for them? Huawei needs to be completely shut out of the U.S. market and Google should be ashamed for working with China. This is a net benefit to U.S. security.
    - deepVoid 7y ago
      These accusations are unfounded and unsubstantiated. If they steal your tech, you should sue them in court. We, the US and other nations, run by the laws. You have all the rights to sue whoever steals your tech. Android is open source and available to everyone including Huawei. Huawei has every right to use it. Blatantly accusing someone of stealing with no evidence leads to libel and defamation.
      - rubbingalcohol 7y ago
        Huawei provides a bounty program for stolen trade secrets: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-28/from-bounty-payments-to-espionage-u-s-alleges-chinese-ip-theft https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-28/from-boun... Many U.S. companies have been afraid to report Chinese IP theft due to fears about retaliation and stock price: https://www.npr.org/2019/04/12/711779130/as-china-hacked-u-s-businesses-turned-a-blind-eye https://www.npr.org/2019/04/12/711779130/as-china-hacked-u-s... Years back when I was still freelancing, I worked with a U.S. firm who sold specialized lightweight cases for a popular sporting product. Their Chinese manufacturer stole the tech, ignored the patent, sold the same product to the U.S. market at half the price and put my client out of business. These claims are not unfounded or unsubstantiated. There has been an ongoing pattern of abuse from China for decades and until recently nobody in our government was giving a shit about it.
      - outworlder 7y ago
        > You have all the rights to sue whoever steals your tech If they are not under your jurisdiction, there's a limit on what can be done. Even if you win, your tech is already in other people's hands. > We, the US and other nations, run by the laws. On paper. Other nations don't do as much enforcement as you think – if at all.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  >It will give up control of the OS on phones that won't be sold in the US anyway. I'm not clear on how that will threaten the US security? That's pretty straight forward, someone from the US exchanges information with someone who has a Huawei phone who is outside the US, someone who has imported a Huawei phone, or someone who is travelling / working in the US and has one. Which given that it's the number 1/2 phone maker in the world, is pretty likely

resoluteteeth 7y ago

This is a little bit different than Iran. The US government specifically does not want Iran to have access to nuclear technology, so preventing US companies from providing technology to Iran is in itself the goal. In the case of Huawei, the US government's concerns mostly seem to be about Huawei possibly spying on the devices they sell. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any particular basis for concern about allowing them to use US software such as android. Therefore, from the perspective of the security threat that is the putative basis for blacklisting Huawei, the fact that Huawei is now blocked from using Android is merely an incidental side effect. (Of course, if the real goal is to hold Huawei hostage as a means to negotiate a trade deal, then threatening to destroy their smartphone business by blocking them from using Android may be precisely what is really intended.)

Ill_ban_myself 7y ago
I know its not a great comparison but that's part of my point. The context and legal precedent in this arena mostly applies to arms and aid, not consumer products.