4 ms·

Problem solver can be the title of pretty much any job though. "I'm a problem solver, I fix problems by diving down and welding broken things at oil platforms"

by cc81 7y ago

Problem solver can be the title of pretty much any job though. "I'm a problem solver, I fix problems by diving down and welding broken things at oil platforms" "I'm a problem solver, I make sure the books are correct at the end of the financial year" etc. I mean it is correct but if someone calls themselves a coder/programmer/software engineer (even if they are not real engineers) then I know roughly what they are doing each day even if the value they create and what they are working on can be wildly different. Just like a deep sea welder.

pdpi 7y ago
Yeah, I wasn't entirely clear on that bit :) There absolutely is plenty of room for a word more specific than "problem-solver". But our choice of words matters — words carry nuance. In some ways I'd consider "software engineer" as equivalent to "novelist" or "journalist" where "programmer" maps to "writer" and "coder" corresponds to "typist". Software engineer, novelist, journalist all encapsulate a lot of responsibilities, where writer and programmer both talk just about primary means of achieving the job, and coder/typist bring it down to the mechanical skills you require to get the job done.
- danielscrubs 7y ago
  I’ve posted it before. But it gets confusing on the global stage. Software Engineer is a protected title in some countries. In mine it means studied a great amount of advanced math in college, almost nothing else. We usually prefix it with a word that tells if we studied 3 or 5 years. SE in US seems to mean just Software Developer I guess?
  - agentultra 7y ago
    In Ontario, Canada you can call yourself a Software Engineer. It's prefixing that title with, Professional that will get you in trouble if you're not licensed with the Professional Engineers of Ontario under the Professional Engineers Act. Requirements are pretty high: http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2057/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2057/la_id/1.htm But I suppose industry/capitalism loves the fact that we don't require licensing in order to produce software even if use of said software should be safeguarding health, property, economic interests, etc.
    - sebdufbeau 7y ago
      In Quebec, Canada Software Engineer is a protected title and you must be registered with the Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec (http://oiq.qc.ca http://oiq.qc.ca)
- munmaek 7y ago
  I actually go the opposite route; I hate calling myself an engineer, because that word actually carries weight due to older, more established professions. The tech/software industry wants the prestige of that title without the work and effort that goes into it. We are not engineers. We have no standardized certification process or tests. We have no (or very little) accountability. We have no codes of ethics. We may or may not be following proper, accepted development workflows. We may not even know what industry standard processes are. I am a software developer because I solve problems primarily via software. This can and does include many different responsibilities and skillsets, but at the end of the day I primarily architect and write code. It's up to you to educate the layperson as to what a software developer actually does. Although I'm not a writer, I understand that a "writer" doesn't literally only write. People can understand better than you're giving them credit for, I think.
  - beat 7y ago
    I think of myself as an "engineer", but more in the "keep the steam engine from exploding" sense.
  - wltprgm 7y ago
    it's fair to say that if you don't like it, then don't speak about it that's your definition of engineering, or whatever officials that define it more so, who cares about your skills other than your employer? And your employer cares about your skills, why should he care about your title? even if other programmers who like to address themselves as software engineers, is it up to you to decide whether they can be hired? It's just a title for god's sake
    - munmaek 7y ago
      > it's fair to say that if you don't like it, then don't speak about it I would like to see the status quo changed, which is why I do discuss it. Of course it's fair that I hold an opinion and discuss it. There is no obligation for you to respond if you disagree :-) > that's your definition of engineering, or whatever officials that define it It's not my sole opinion: > As with many other professions, the professional status and the actual practice of professional engineering is legally defined and protected by law in some jurisdictions. [3] It's understood that if someone holds the title 'Engineer', they went through a certification process from a regulated body, traditionally. You can see this for example in countries and per state. [0] [1] [2] > In Canada the designation "professional engineer" can only be used by licensed engineers and the practice of engineering is protected in law and strictly enforced in all provinces. [3] In Canada (and I believe some states), it is illegal to sign off an email or other correspondence as a "Professional Engineer" if you're not actually licensed as such. [4] --- > is it up to you to decide whether they can be hired? When did I mention hiring? All I said was the term 'engineer' is loosely used in the software industry, and it has absolutely no standard around it. > employer [...] why should he care about your title? I wasn't talking about my employer at all. I only referenced skills because I was responding to a portion of the parent comment. > It's just a title for god's sake It isn't. How we frame something is very important in my opinion–just as important as the concept itself. [5] If it's "just a title", then people should have no problem calling themselves programmers or developers. However one can see that we call ourselves "engineers" because it sounds prestigious, despite the software industry being a total joke when it comes to standardization or even following basic modern practices consistently. [0]: https://engineerscanada.ca/accreditation/about-accreditation https://engineerscanada.ca/accreditation/about-accreditation [1]: https://ncees.org/engineering/ https://ncees.org/engineering/ [2]: https://www.ncbels.org/ https://www.ncbels.org/ [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en... [4]: http://www.occupationalhealthandsafetylaw.com/ontario-man-fined-6000-for-illegal-use-of-professional-engineer-title-when-seeking-job http://www.occupationalhealthandsafetylaw.com/ontario-man-fi... [5]: Consider for a moment the term "Global Warming" versus "Global Pollution Epidemic". I strongly believe if we had gone with the latter instead of the former, there would not have been pushback to the scale that we've seen. It certainly would have avoided the confusion of "oh, but this winter is so cold, global warming must be a hoax"! It also shifts the focus from an effect of pollution, to the pollution itself. This example is quite different than the software engineer/developer example, but I think it illustrates my point that how things are framed is very important. We are not software engineers, and we won't be until regulatory bodies exist, and we develop codes of ethics.

by cc81 7y ago

pdpi 7y ago

Yeah, I wasn't entirely clear on that bit :) There absolutely is plenty of room for a word more specific than "problem-solver". But our choice of words matters — words carry nuance. In some ways I'd consider "software engineer" as equivalent to "novelist" or "journalist" where "programmer" maps to "writer" and "coder" corresponds to "typist". Software engineer, novelist, journalist all encapsulate a lot of responsibilities, where writer and programmer both talk just about primary means of achieving the job, and coder/typist bring it down to the mechanical skills you require to get the job done.

danielscrubs 7y ago
I’ve posted it before. But it gets confusing on the global stage. Software Engineer is a protected title in some countries. In mine it means studied a great amount of advanced math in college, almost nothing else. We usually prefix it with a word that tells if we studied 3 or 5 years. SE in US seems to mean just Software Developer I guess?
- agentultra 7y ago
  In Ontario, Canada you can call yourself a Software Engineer. It's prefixing that title with, Professional that will get you in trouble if you're not licensed with the Professional Engineers of Ontario under the Professional Engineers Act. Requirements are pretty high: http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2057/la_id/1.htm http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/2057/la_id/1.htm But I suppose industry/capitalism loves the fact that we don't require licensing in order to produce software even if use of said software should be safeguarding health, property, economic interests, etc.
  - sebdufbeau 7y ago
    In Quebec, Canada Software Engineer is a protected title and you must be registered with the Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec (http://oiq.qc.ca http://oiq.qc.ca)
munmaek 7y ago
I actually go the opposite route; I hate calling myself an engineer, because that word actually carries weight due to older, more established professions. The tech/software industry wants the prestige of that title without the work and effort that goes into it. We are not engineers. We have no standardized certification process or tests. We have no (or very little) accountability. We have no codes of ethics. We may or may not be following proper, accepted development workflows. We may not even know what industry standard processes are. I am a software developer because I solve problems primarily via software. This can and does include many different responsibilities and skillsets, but at the end of the day I primarily architect and write code. It's up to you to educate the layperson as to what a software developer actually does. Although I'm not a writer, I understand that a "writer" doesn't literally only write. People can understand better than you're giving them credit for, I think.
- beat 7y ago
  I think of myself as an "engineer", but more in the "keep the steam engine from exploding" sense.
- wltprgm 7y ago
  it's fair to say that if you don't like it, then don't speak about it that's your definition of engineering, or whatever officials that define it more so, who cares about your skills other than your employer? And your employer cares about your skills, why should he care about your title? even if other programmers who like to address themselves as software engineers, is it up to you to decide whether they can be hired? It's just a title for god's sake
  - munmaek 7y ago
    > it's fair to say that if you don't like it, then don't speak about it I would like to see the status quo changed, which is why I do discuss it. Of course it's fair that I hold an opinion and discuss it. There is no obligation for you to respond if you disagree :-) > that's your definition of engineering, or whatever officials that define it It's not my sole opinion: > As with many other professions, the professional status and the actual practice of professional engineering is legally defined and protected by law in some jurisdictions. [3] It's understood that if someone holds the title 'Engineer', they went through a certification process from a regulated body, traditionally. You can see this for example in countries and per state. [0] [1] [2] > In Canada the designation "professional engineer" can only be used by licensed engineers and the practice of engineering is protected in law and strictly enforced in all provinces. [3] In Canada (and I believe some states), it is illegal to sign off an email or other correspondence as a "Professional Engineer" if you're not actually licensed as such. [4] --- > is it up to you to decide whether they can be hired? When did I mention hiring? All I said was the term 'engineer' is loosely used in the software industry, and it has absolutely no standard around it. > employer [...] why should he care about your title? I wasn't talking about my employer at all. I only referenced skills because I was responding to a portion of the parent comment. > It's just a title for god's sake It isn't. How we frame something is very important in my opinion–just as important as the concept itself. [5] If it's "just a title", then people should have no problem calling themselves programmers or developers. However one can see that we call ourselves "engineers" because it sounds prestigious, despite the software industry being a total joke when it comes to standardization or even following basic modern practices consistently. [0]: https://engineerscanada.ca/accreditation/about-accreditation https://engineerscanada.ca/accreditation/about-accreditation [1]: https://ncees.org/engineering/ https://ncees.org/engineering/ [2]: https://www.ncbels.org/ https://www.ncbels.org/ [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en... [4]: http://www.occupationalhealthandsafetylaw.com/ontario-man-fined-6000-for-illegal-use-of-professional-engineer-title-when-seeking-job http://www.occupationalhealthandsafetylaw.com/ontario-man-fi... [5]: Consider for a moment the term "Global Warming" versus "Global Pollution Epidemic". I strongly believe if we had gone with the latter instead of the former, there would not have been pushback to the scale that we've seen. It certainly would have avoided the confusion of "oh, but this winter is so cold, global warming must be a hoax"! It also shifts the focus from an effect of pollution, to the pollution itself. This example is quite different than the software engineer/developer example, but I think it illustrates my point that how things are framed is very important. We are not software engineers, and we won't be until regulatory bodies exist, and we develop codes of ethics.