5 ms·

To me this was the most fascinating bit: “ Historically the Mosuo lived in a feudal system where a larger peasant population was controlled by a small nobility.

by tlear 7y ago

To me this was the most fascinating bit: “ Historically the Mosuo lived in a feudal system where a larger peasant population was controlled by a small nobility. The nobility was afraid of the peasant class gaining power. Since leadership was hereditary, the peasant class was given a matriarchal system. This prevented threats to nobility power by having the peasant class trace lineage through the female line. This system has led to numerous distinct traits among Mosuo society.“ But there is no reference.. if true this is some clever social engineering by the nobility!

mistrial9 7y ago
not specific to Mosuo, but matriarchal lineage was not 'replaced' by patriarchal in any simple way .. men hunted then men fought wars, and the winner of the wars declared themselves to be rulers, while "peaceful" people stuck with the old ways centered on fertility .. this happened in different parts of the world with very different peoples, over centuries
- YUMad 7y ago
  'Old ways centered on fertility' is unscientific feminist babble pioneered by Marija Gimbutas. It has been thoroughly debunked. We were always violent. It's just that before agriculture the scope and the resources for violence were limited, so the amount of violence fell into equilibrium, mostly by hunter-gatherer groups establishing clear borders between them.
Footpost 7y ago
It has been argued that the raise of the Catholic Church to power had a similar reason: catholic priests don't have offspring (at least in theory) hence priests cannot form dynasties and the advantages (for trust and cooperation) of shared descent don't apply, thus priests and hence the Catholic church were less of a threat to existing nobility than other organisations that can form dynasties based on descent. (Note that the Catholic Church is the oldest still existing organisation, and was at some point in history arguably the most powerful organisation in the world.) I have no opinion on the truth or otherwise of this theory, but find it fascinating.
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  I thought that a lot of sons of wealthy families went into priesthood so by keeping them celibate the church would then get their inheritance. That’s how I heard it.
  - Udik 7y ago
    True, but that also means filling the ranks of the Church with people coming from wealthy, powerful families. You can imagine the effect that has on the relationship between temporal and spiritual powers.
- testvox 7y ago
  I'm not sure of your claim that the Catholic Church is the oldest existing organization as that is a pretty broad term. For instance this Church is older, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_Jerus... I believe the Catholic Church is the oldest corporation (they were the first non-human entity recognized by law as having similar rights and responsibilities as an individual).
- pge 7y ago
  Diarmaid McCulloch's book "Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years" discusses this at some length. My recollection from the book is that celibacy was not a driver of the rise of the Catholic Church (which was already well established) but it was a reason for the Church to establish celibacy as a rule for priests. That is, the celibacy rules (which did not exist in the early church) were instilled to prevent the accumulation of dynastic wealth (and power) by clergy. Control of the accumulated wealth remained with the Church. Monasteries, however, were a way around this, as monasteries could accumulate substantial wealth as institutions despite the celibacy of their members. Just my recollection from having read the book - don't guarantee it is 100% as the book presented...
- vram22 7y ago
  >Note that the Catholic Church is the oldest still existing organisation, and was at some point in history arguably the most powerful organisation in the world. The book "The Shoes of the Fisherman" by Morris West is a good fiction novel, sort of related to your comment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_West https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_West Excerpt: [ In an unforseeable literary coup, the book was published on 3 June 1963, the very day on which Pope John XXIII died.[2] The book reached No. 1 on The New York Times Best Seller List for adult fiction on 30 June 1963, and became the No. 1 best-selling novel in the United States for that year, according to Publishers Weekly. ]
microcolonel 7y ago
Sparta had a similar effect, where (citizen) women inherited all of their husband's (doomed, as he will go to war) property, and an equal part of their immediate family's estate, and so owned the vast majority of the land and pulled the state around by the nose; even as they went out with a whimper. (apologies if misremembering Xenophon)

by tlear 7y ago

mistrial9 7y ago

not specific to Mosuo, but matriarchal lineage was not 'replaced' by patriarchal in any simple way .. men hunted then men fought wars, and the winner of the wars declared themselves to be rulers, while "peaceful" people stuck with the old ways centered on fertility .. this happened in different parts of the world with very different peoples, over centuries

YUMad 7y ago
'Old ways centered on fertility' is unscientific feminist babble pioneered by Marija Gimbutas. It has been thoroughly debunked. We were always violent. It's just that before agriculture the scope and the resources for violence were limited, so the amount of violence fell into equilibrium, mostly by hunter-gatherer groups establishing clear borders between them.

Footpost 7y ago

It has been argued that the raise of the Catholic Church to power had a similar reason: catholic priests don't have offspring (at least in theory) hence priests cannot form dynasties and the advantages (for trust and cooperation) of shared descent don't apply, thus priests and hence the Catholic church were less of a threat to existing nobility than other organisations that can form dynasties based on descent. (Note that the Catholic Church is the oldest still existing organisation, and was at some point in history arguably the most powerful organisation in the world.) I have no opinion on the truth or otherwise of this theory, but find it fascinating.

maxxxxx 7y ago
I thought that a lot of sons of wealthy families went into priesthood so by keeping them celibate the church would then get their inheritance. That’s how I heard it.
- Udik 7y ago
  True, but that also means filling the ranks of the Church with people coming from wealthy, powerful families. You can imagine the effect that has on the relationship between temporal and spiritual powers.
testvox 7y ago
I'm not sure of your claim that the Catholic Church is the oldest existing organization as that is a pretty broad term. For instance this Church is older, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_Jerus... I believe the Catholic Church is the oldest corporation (they were the first non-human entity recognized by law as having similar rights and responsibilities as an individual).
pge 7y ago
Diarmaid McCulloch's book "Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years" discusses this at some length. My recollection from the book is that celibacy was not a driver of the rise of the Catholic Church (which was already well established) but it was a reason for the Church to establish celibacy as a rule for priests. That is, the celibacy rules (which did not exist in the early church) were instilled to prevent the accumulation of dynastic wealth (and power) by clergy. Control of the accumulated wealth remained with the Church. Monasteries, however, were a way around this, as monasteries could accumulate substantial wealth as institutions despite the celibacy of their members. Just my recollection from having read the book - don't guarantee it is 100% as the book presented...
vram22 7y ago
>Note that the Catholic Church is the oldest still existing organisation, and was at some point in history arguably the most powerful organisation in the world. The book "The Shoes of the Fisherman" by Morris West is a good fiction novel, sort of related to your comment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_West https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_West Excerpt: [ In an unforseeable literary coup, the book was published on 3 June 1963, the very day on which Pope John XXIII died.[2] The book reached No. 1 on The New York Times Best Seller List for adult fiction on 30 June 1963, and became the No. 1 best-selling novel in the United States for that year, according to Publishers Weekly. ]

microcolonel 7y ago

Sparta had a similar effect, where (citizen) women inherited all of their husband's (doomed, as he will go to war) property, and an equal part of their immediate family's estate, and so owned the vast majority of the land and pulled the state around by the nose; even as they went out with a whimper. (apologies if misremembering Xenophon)