7 ms·

Have you transferred money across borders to an individual lately? As much as I want to criticize this FB is probably in an excellent position to navigate the k

by A2017U1 7y ago

Have you transferred money across borders to an individual lately? As much as I want to criticize this FB is probably in an excellent position to navigate the kyc minefields.

vbezhenar 7y ago
That does not really answer the question.
wz1000 7y ago
My question was "what does blockchain bring to the table compared to a regular database?". How does using a blockchain/cryptocurrency make it easier to sidestep regulations compared to a regular old database?
- kolinko 7y ago
  Sidestep regulations - if you build a system that doesn't allow you to do certain things (e.g. change balances at will), then the government cannot force you to do them. But again - it's not about regulations. It's about interoperability. Centralised money transfer stuff is not new (PayPal? Banks?), the problem with it was always integration with other systems. Also, if it's a centralised database, it's hard to build real startups on top of it. Look at what happened to startups building on top of Twitter APIs when Twitter decided to change them. If you build some parts on top of a public blockchain, it gives guarantees related to accessibility of those parts in the future.
- A2017U1 7y ago
  fair call, considering it's all permissioned, to pathetically argue the point I don't really care much for: I guess you could claim some sort of providence of money movements using a git like system but realistically I think it's likely the marketing department had far more to do with the decision than the engineering dept. You only have to look at wechat's dominance thoughout Asia to realise whatapp could get absolutely blown away by the all-in-one messenger/payment system if it took off in the West.
- callmeal 7y ago
  >My question was "what does blockchain bring to the table compared to a regular database?". You cannot compare blockchain with a regular database. A blockchain is more like an append-only store, or a WORM drive where each "file" or "record" is digitally authenticated and signed/hashed in a way to make undetectable modifications extremely difficult and/or expensive.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > You cannot compare blockchain with a regular database. Yes, you can. That it is different, and the resulting difference in utility, is the exact point of such a comparison.
CaptainZapp 7y ago
Have you transferred money across borders to an individual lately? Actually yes. From Switzerland to my brother in Belgium. It was transferred on the same business day at no expense to him or me. Look up SEPA[1] for details. Just because the American banking system is the complete shits this does not necessarily apply to the rest of the world. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area
- alehul 7y ago
  Across very cooperative borders in wealthy Europe, sure. Do you think it's as easy for those in India, China, or Kenya, for instance?
  - CaptainZapp 7y ago
    Kenya is a relatively bad example. While a lot of people are underbanked mobile banking and - payments took off in a spectacular way.[1] It's probably easier to transfer funds via M-Pesa then from a bank account in Delaware to a bank account in Detroit And, at least in theory, America is a wealthy country without any borders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa
    - eng101 7y ago
      You’re right. I find it stupendously easy to move money within/into Kenya. I can easily pay a street seller from my US bank account, directly to his/her phone, in seconds. Pains me to say this because I had this international bank/credit card to M-Pesa transfers idea a decade ago, a professor dissuaded me from pursuing it. 5 years later, a bunch of services launched and many are thriving.
  - A2017U1 7y ago
    Entirely this, many in the West have no idea how difficult crossborder banking actually is for the vast majority of human beings on Earth.
nabla9 7y ago
What minefields? Wetern Union, HiFX, PayPal, MoneyGram,Azimo work just fine.
peteretep 7y ago
> Have you transferred money across borders to an individual lately? Yes, frequently. Using TransferWise or FairFx, depending on where the recipient was, but inclusive of Thailand, USA, Ecuador, and Canada. The process was entirely painless, fast, and the transfer was cheap as chips, while bringing to bear the full weight of European bank regulations to protect me as a customer.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  > The process was entirely painless, fast, and the transfer was cheap as chips, while bringing to bear the full weight of European bank regulations to protect me as a customer. I wish more people on HN would understand the importance of this. I've said it here before but I think it's worth repeating. Banks want to send your money internationally and, as you've said, are more than capable of sending your money quickly and cheaply. Any time an international bank transfer is a pain in the ass it's by design to protect consumer interests and/or to protect government interests. There's a reason you can't just rock up to the teller at Wells Fargo and send $1,000 to North Korea the same way you can if you needed to send $1,000 to Canada.
  - stale2002 7y ago
    Ok, well what if I want to send money cheaply? Lol, it seems like that is a good usecase.... I don't care about the reason that banks have for sabotaging their own service. That is not my problem.
- aianus 7y ago
  > transfer was cheap as chips I used TransferWise once a few years ago from USD to CAD and it cost ~1.4% all-in. That's cheaper than my bank but still very expensive if you're transferring your whole salary every pay period like I was. I ended up using Bitcoin instead. Is it cheaper now?
  - peteretep 7y ago
    I paid 0.5% all in on a salary-sized GBP/THB transfer a few days ago.
briodf 7y ago
Have you transferred money across borders with good recommendations lately? Sending money across borders is historically super complex and expensive, you're right. The WorldBank estimates that it costs an average of 8% in total fees (transfer fees + exchange rate mark-up) to transfer money internationally. For international transfers with banks and cash-based money transfers, this is still true. But, in the last 10 years, we've seen hundreds of new online money transfer operators innovating in the field (way before crypto) starting with Xoom in the first wave and then TransferWise, Remitly, WorldRemit, InstaRem, Azimo and hundreds of others... Sending $300 to Mexico to any agent location to pickup cash will cost you $2 with the cheapest option: https://www.monito.com/send-money/united-states/mexico/usd/mxn/300 https://www.monito.com/send-money/united-states/mexico/usd/m... $1000 from Canada to a bank account in the Philippines in minutes? $6 https://www.monito.com/send-money/canada/philippines/cad/php/1000 https://www.monito.com/send-money/canada/philippines/cad/php... etc... These new innovative services are up to 10x cheapers than banks or traditional cash-based money transfers, often faster and much more convenient.
- baby 7y ago
  Don't know about Monito but I've used TransferWise many times. First it's not straight forward, it takes time (several days), and it's freaking expensive. These numbers you quote are pretty far from what I spend when transferring money between France, the UK and the US.
rafiki6 7y ago
I can almost guarantee you that regulators will step in and regulate the living crap out of this system if it's found to be actively used for high rates of cross-border transfers and foreign exchange. Governments are a lot smarter than people give them credit for. Once the regulation kicks in, all of a sudden the value of this diminishes greatly.

Have you transferred money across borders to an individual lately? As much as I want to criticize this FB is probably in an excellent position to navigate the kyc minefields.

vbezhenar 7y ago

That does not really answer the question.

wz1000 7y ago

My question was "what does blockchain bring to the table compared to a regular database?". How does using a blockchain/cryptocurrency make it easier to sidestep regulations compared to a regular old database?

kolinko 7y ago
Sidestep regulations - if you build a system that doesn't allow you to do certain things (e.g. change balances at will), then the government cannot force you to do them. But again - it's not about regulations. It's about interoperability. Centralised money transfer stuff is not new (PayPal? Banks?), the problem with it was always integration with other systems. Also, if it's a centralised database, it's hard to build real startups on top of it. Look at what happened to startups building on top of Twitter APIs when Twitter decided to change them. If you build some parts on top of a public blockchain, it gives guarantees related to accessibility of those parts in the future.
A2017U1 7y ago
fair call, considering it's all permissioned, to pathetically argue the point I don't really care much for: I guess you could claim some sort of providence of money movements using a git like system but realistically I think it's likely the marketing department had far more to do with the decision than the engineering dept. You only have to look at wechat's dominance thoughout Asia to realise whatapp could get absolutely blown away by the all-in-one messenger/payment system if it took off in the West.
callmeal 7y ago
>My question was "what does blockchain bring to the table compared to a regular database?". You cannot compare blockchain with a regular database. A blockchain is more like an append-only store, or a WORM drive where each "file" or "record" is digitally authenticated and signed/hashed in a way to make undetectable modifications extremely difficult and/or expensive.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > You cannot compare blockchain with a regular database. Yes, you can. That it is different, and the resulting difference in utility, is the exact point of such a comparison.

CaptainZapp 7y ago

Have you transferred money across borders to an individual lately? Actually yes. From Switzerland to my brother in Belgium. It was transferred on the same business day at no expense to him or me. Look up SEPA[1] for details. Just because the American banking system is the complete shits this does not necessarily apply to the rest of the world. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

alehul 7y ago
Across very cooperative borders in wealthy Europe, sure. Do you think it's as easy for those in India, China, or Kenya, for instance?
- CaptainZapp 7y ago
  Kenya is a relatively bad example. While a lot of people are underbanked mobile banking and - payments took off in a spectacular way.[1] It's probably easier to transfer funds via M-Pesa then from a bank account in Delaware to a bank account in Detroit And, at least in theory, America is a wealthy country without any borders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa
  - eng101 7y ago
    You’re right. I find it stupendously easy to move money within/into Kenya. I can easily pay a street seller from my US bank account, directly to his/her phone, in seconds. Pains me to say this because I had this international bank/credit card to M-Pesa transfers idea a decade ago, a professor dissuaded me from pursuing it. 5 years later, a bunch of services launched and many are thriving.
- A2017U1 7y ago
  Entirely this, many in the West have no idea how difficult crossborder banking actually is for the vast majority of human beings on Earth.

nabla9 7y ago

What minefields? Wetern Union, HiFX, PayPal, MoneyGram,Azimo work just fine.

peteretep 7y ago

> Have you transferred money across borders to an individual lately? Yes, frequently. Using TransferWise or FairFx, depending on where the recipient was, but inclusive of Thailand, USA, Ecuador, and Canada. The process was entirely painless, fast, and the transfer was cheap as chips, while bringing to bear the full weight of European bank regulations to protect me as a customer.

elliekelly 7y ago
> The process was entirely painless, fast, and the transfer was cheap as chips, while bringing to bear the full weight of European bank regulations to protect me as a customer. I wish more people on HN would understand the importance of this. I've said it here before but I think it's worth repeating. Banks want to send your money internationally and, as you've said, are more than capable of sending your money quickly and cheaply. Any time an international bank transfer is a pain in the ass it's by design to protect consumer interests and/or to protect government interests. There's a reason you can't just rock up to the teller at Wells Fargo and send $1,000 to North Korea the same way you can if you needed to send $1,000 to Canada.
- stale2002 7y ago
  Ok, well what if I want to send money cheaply? Lol, it seems like that is a good usecase.... I don't care about the reason that banks have for sabotaging their own service. That is not my problem.
aianus 7y ago
> transfer was cheap as chips I used TransferWise once a few years ago from USD to CAD and it cost ~1.4% all-in. That's cheaper than my bank but still very expensive if you're transferring your whole salary every pay period like I was. I ended up using Bitcoin instead. Is it cheaper now?
- peteretep 7y ago
  I paid 0.5% all in on a salary-sized GBP/THB transfer a few days ago.

briodf 7y ago

Have you transferred money across borders with good recommendations lately? Sending money across borders is historically super complex and expensive, you're right. The WorldBank estimates that it costs an average of 8% in total fees (transfer fees + exchange rate mark-up) to transfer money internationally. For international transfers with banks and cash-based money transfers, this is still true. But, in the last 10 years, we've seen hundreds of new online money transfer operators innovating in the field (way before crypto) starting with Xoom in the first wave and then TransferWise, Remitly, WorldRemit, InstaRem, Azimo and hundreds of others... Sending $300 to Mexico to any agent location to pickup cash will cost you $2 with the cheapest option: https://www.monito.com/send-money/united-states/mexico/usd/mxn/300 https://www.monito.com/send-money/united-states/mexico/usd/m... $1000 from Canada to a bank account in the Philippines in minutes? $6 https://www.monito.com/send-money/canada/philippines/cad/php/1000 https://www.monito.com/send-money/canada/philippines/cad/php... etc... These new innovative services are up to 10x cheapers than banks or traditional cash-based money transfers, often faster and much more convenient.

baby 7y ago
Don't know about Monito but I've used TransferWise many times. First it's not straight forward, it takes time (several days), and it's freaking expensive. These numbers you quote are pretty far from what I spend when transferring money between France, the UK and the US.

rafiki6 7y ago

I can almost guarantee you that regulators will step in and regulate the living crap out of this system if it's found to be actively used for high rates of cross-border transfers and foreign exchange. Governments are a lot smarter than people give them credit for. Once the regulation kicks in, all of a sudden the value of this diminishes greatly.