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> and it's this delicate social situation that requires more mental effort to negotiate than I want to give it I understand what you're saying, and I recognize

by dgzl 7y ago

> and it's this delicate social situation that requires more mental effort to negotiate than I want to give it I understand what you're saying, and I recognize the blessing/curse that comes with attracting people. However, as I've become an adult with a career and have left essentially all my friends behind, I've realized that making new friends is incredibly difficult. Even worse is trying to find dating partners. Lately I've been resorting to just talking to strangers and seeing if I can start a conversation. Not to excuse the behavior of your drivers, but you should understand that men are having a difficult time with approaching women these days. We feel really inadequate and sort of aimless. The dating world is seriously dangerous right now and to be honest, there isn't a lot of guidance from women. I've experienced a range of rejections and the least painful are always honest and upfront. Maybe you could try that?

abyssin 7y ago
I don't think anyone should accept that someone who's paid to provide a service is entitled to expect their client to be available for dating.
- dijit 7y ago
  I think a bigger statement here is that nobody is _entitled_ to anything. We have an informal agreement that you shouldn't hit on service workers because essentially they can't escape the situation gracefully, but that agreement is not bilateral because as a customer you generally do have the freedom to be up front or let it pass. Obviously there are shades of grey to everything, and by no means am I excusing all behaviour, but the power dynamic is in favour of the client not the worker, and if you're respectful of the individual then I don't see why it should be stigmatic to approach someone. For context I've had waitresses give me their number, and that was just nice, no expectation that I have to reply and no repercussions if I didn't (as-in, they didn't have a means to berate me for not replying). But, yeah, shades of grey.
  - JimboOmega 7y ago
    In the context of a lyft/uber it's a bit different; it would not only be socially awkward but also usually make me late (and possibly even dangerous) to stop the ride halfway through and exit. It's not the case (thankfully) that I've felt my safety is in danger in these situations... it's just annoying.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Even though I was a professional software engineer at the time, I was also a part time fitness instructor for over a decade. I even taught at women’s only gyms. I was really careful about not approaching anyone in my class - for the most part, women do not want to be approached at the gym - especially a women’s only gym, they go there specifically not to be bothered. On a slightly tangential note women only gyms are the only place where some observant Muslim women could work out in comfortable clothing.
- dgzl 7y ago
  Dating is all about risk. If you can't hit on your client, then what about the person at the grocery store? What about at the DMV? What about on the street? If we eliminate flirting from all the places it's unacceptable, then there wouldn't be any more flirting at all. Considering it's generally the man's responsibility to initiate (cultural standards, not my own, I would love if women took this responsibility), this really just negatively affects men and not women, furthering the inequality in dating.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Some places you should not flirt. I’m not flirting with a client. They are there to conduct business. Like I said above, I was a part time fitnesses instructor and occasional personal trainer. I would never even think about flirting with a client when I was single. I definitely wouldn’t flirt with a subordinate. I always told myself not to flirt with a coworker (don’t mess where you eat), but I met my now-wife at my job, but by the time we started dating I knew the company was on its last leg so I said what the heck? It was slightly hard dating in my 20s, it was even harder in my mid 30s after being divorced, I can’t imagine dating at 40+ if I were single again.
    - dgzl 7y ago
      Flirting with a co-worker is still very inappropriate though, to some people. It's risky and there are no clear rules, which really sucks for men if they're expected to initiate.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        In my case, what was the worse that could happen? They were going to fire me? I was doing presentations for potential buyers of the company. I knew we didn’t have more than two month’s runway left. If I had thought I was risking a long career at the company I might have been more careful.
CapricornNoble 7y ago
>Not to excuse the behavior of your drivers, but you should understand that men are having a difficult time with approaching women these days. We feel really inadequate and sort of aimless. The dating world is seriously dangerous right now and to be honest Are you in the US? Leave it. Seriously, I encourage all men to become expats if they don't already have children in the US that they are trying to raise. Just completely abandon a system and society that is failing to meet your needs. If you feel inadequate, ask yourself A) by whose metrics? and B) why?. Go to the gym, dress better. Have goals in your life (outside of dating) that you aggressively pursue. The US dating scene is increasingly insane, and men don't even realize it because they aren't exposed to kind, helpful, friendly, feminine women that are simply abundant in other cultures (or even in Flyover states, if you look there). And finally: > there isn't a lot of guidance from women The more women you date, the more you will realize that most dating "guidance" from women is absolutely useless. The cognitive dissonance most of them have will blow your mind when you witness it first-hand. And women don't want a man that they have to "guide" anyway. They want to attach themselves to a guy who's got his sh*t together and knows what he wants.
- dgzl 7y ago
  I do live in the US, and I really enjoy my area. There's an abundance of nearby outdoor rock climbing and snowboarding, both of which I'm very skilled at. I have a well-paying tech job, no debt, not much baggage, blue eyes. I think my biggest deterrent for women is that I'm somewhat short and have a slight receding hairline, which is apparently enough to detract from all my positives. I've lived in the Midwest before and it's worse there, partly because I couldn't practice my sports which kept me out of shape, partly because it was even harder finding like-minded friends, in part because I don't like regular sports. I would definitely consider moving out of country if that opportunity ever came up. > And women don't want a man that they have to "guide" anyway. They want to attach themselves to a guy who's got his sh*t together and knows what he wants. This leads into what I consider unrecognized female privilege. From what I can tell, women have a pretty big list of superficial expectations from their partners, and are really quick to dismiss those who don't fall into place. They also gave an abundance of interested suitors who they can sort through until they find they one they way. Me on the other hand, I'm lucky to find someone interested in me who even passes my most basic tests. Equality in dating doesn't exist and it's highly skewed in favor of women.
shaki-dora 7y ago
> Not to excuse the behavior of your drivers, but...
JimboOmega 7y ago
One of my complaints is sending what I consider very obvious "I'm not interested" signals - like putting in earbuds - still doesn't stop them. There's something that stops me from just saying "I'm not interested"; for one thing it labels what they're doing as hitting on me and they might argue back with me ("Hey, I'm just giving you a compliment!") and/or get upset. It's usually easier to just nod, mumble, and act much more interested in my phone than them and hope they get the hint. What do you mean about the dating world being dangerous? I'm a lesbian anyway, but I think regardless of gender or identity it's tough because people (including myself) are very emotionally guarded. Whether you have trouble finding dates or not, every relationship is at arms length, every plan can be dropped when a better one comes along, you "don't want to catch feelings", etc. Nobody wants to firmly commit to a time for lunch, let alone a relationship (even without monogamy). That kind of sucks, but in terms of it being dangerous, it usually only feels physically so if you get involved with men. Emotionally though, it does feel dangerous... it sort of feels like a race to the bottom where whoever cares the least wins. I kind of miss really caring about the people I date; but they usually don't care about me, and if I do care about them, often as not that scares them off. It's certainly a weird dating world these days.

by dgzl 7y ago

abyssin 7y ago

I don't think anyone should accept that someone who's paid to provide a service is entitled to expect their client to be available for dating.

dijit 7y ago
I think a bigger statement here is that nobody is _entitled_ to anything. We have an informal agreement that you shouldn't hit on service workers because essentially they can't escape the situation gracefully, but that agreement is not bilateral because as a customer you generally do have the freedom to be up front or let it pass. Obviously there are shades of grey to everything, and by no means am I excusing all behaviour, but the power dynamic is in favour of the client not the worker, and if you're respectful of the individual then I don't see why it should be stigmatic to approach someone. For context I've had waitresses give me their number, and that was just nice, no expectation that I have to reply and no repercussions if I didn't (as-in, they didn't have a means to berate me for not replying). But, yeah, shades of grey.
- JimboOmega 7y ago
  In the context of a lyft/uber it's a bit different; it would not only be socially awkward but also usually make me late (and possibly even dangerous) to stop the ride halfway through and exit. It's not the case (thankfully) that I've felt my safety is in danger in these situations... it's just annoying.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Even though I was a professional software engineer at the time, I was also a part time fitness instructor for over a decade. I even taught at women’s only gyms. I was really careful about not approaching anyone in my class - for the most part, women do not want to be approached at the gym - especially a women’s only gym, they go there specifically not to be bothered. On a slightly tangential note women only gyms are the only place where some observant Muslim women could work out in comfortable clothing.
dgzl 7y ago
Dating is all about risk. If you can't hit on your client, then what about the person at the grocery store? What about at the DMV? What about on the street? If we eliminate flirting from all the places it's unacceptable, then there wouldn't be any more flirting at all. Considering it's generally the man's responsibility to initiate (cultural standards, not my own, I would love if women took this responsibility), this really just negatively affects men and not women, furthering the inequality in dating.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Some places you should not flirt. I’m not flirting with a client. They are there to conduct business. Like I said above, I was a part time fitnesses instructor and occasional personal trainer. I would never even think about flirting with a client when I was single. I definitely wouldn’t flirt with a subordinate. I always told myself not to flirt with a coworker (don’t mess where you eat), but I met my now-wife at my job, but by the time we started dating I knew the company was on its last leg so I said what the heck? It was slightly hard dating in my 20s, it was even harder in my mid 30s after being divorced, I can’t imagine dating at 40+ if I were single again.
  - dgzl 7y ago
    Flirting with a co-worker is still very inappropriate though, to some people. It's risky and there are no clear rules, which really sucks for men if they're expected to initiate.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      In my case, what was the worse that could happen? They were going to fire me? I was doing presentations for potential buyers of the company. I knew we didn’t have more than two month’s runway left. If I had thought I was risking a long career at the company I might have been more careful.

CapricornNoble 7y ago

>Not to excuse the behavior of your drivers, but you should understand that men are having a difficult time with approaching women these days. We feel really inadequate and sort of aimless. The dating world is seriously dangerous right now and to be honest Are you in the US? Leave it. Seriously, I encourage all men to become expats if they don't already have children in the US that they are trying to raise. Just completely abandon a system and society that is failing to meet your needs. If you feel inadequate, ask yourself A) by whose metrics? and B) why?. Go to the gym, dress better. Have goals in your life (outside of dating) that you aggressively pursue. The US dating scene is increasingly insane, and men don't even realize it because they aren't exposed to kind, helpful, friendly, feminine women that are simply abundant in other cultures (or even in Flyover states, if you look there). And finally: > there isn't a lot of guidance from women The more women you date, the more you will realize that most dating "guidance" from women is absolutely useless. The cognitive dissonance most of them have will blow your mind when you witness it first-hand. And women don't want a man that they have to "guide" anyway. They want to attach themselves to a guy who's got his sh*t together and knows what he wants.

dgzl 7y ago
I do live in the US, and I really enjoy my area. There's an abundance of nearby outdoor rock climbing and snowboarding, both of which I'm very skilled at. I have a well-paying tech job, no debt, not much baggage, blue eyes. I think my biggest deterrent for women is that I'm somewhat short and have a slight receding hairline, which is apparently enough to detract from all my positives. I've lived in the Midwest before and it's worse there, partly because I couldn't practice my sports which kept me out of shape, partly because it was even harder finding like-minded friends, in part because I don't like regular sports. I would definitely consider moving out of country if that opportunity ever came up. > And women don't want a man that they have to "guide" anyway. They want to attach themselves to a guy who's got his sh*t together and knows what he wants. This leads into what I consider unrecognized female privilege. From what I can tell, women have a pretty big list of superficial expectations from their partners, and are really quick to dismiss those who don't fall into place. They also gave an abundance of interested suitors who they can sort through until they find they one they way. Me on the other hand, I'm lucky to find someone interested in me who even passes my most basic tests. Equality in dating doesn't exist and it's highly skewed in favor of women.

shaki-dora 7y ago

> Not to excuse the behavior of your drivers, but...

JimboOmega 7y ago

One of my complaints is sending what I consider very obvious "I'm not interested" signals - like putting in earbuds - still doesn't stop them. There's something that stops me from just saying "I'm not interested"; for one thing it labels what they're doing as hitting on me and they might argue back with me ("Hey, I'm just giving you a compliment!") and/or get upset. It's usually easier to just nod, mumble, and act much more interested in my phone than them and hope they get the hint. What do you mean about the dating world being dangerous? I'm a lesbian anyway, but I think regardless of gender or identity it's tough because people (including myself) are very emotionally guarded. Whether you have trouble finding dates or not, every relationship is at arms length, every plan can be dropped when a better one comes along, you "don't want to catch feelings", etc. Nobody wants to firmly commit to a time for lunch, let alone a relationship (even without monogamy). That kind of sucks, but in terms of it being dangerous, it usually only feels physically so if you get involved with men. Emotionally though, it does feel dangerous... it sort of feels like a race to the bottom where whoever cares the least wins. I kind of miss really caring about the people I date; but they usually don't care about me, and if I do care about them, often as not that scares them off. It's certainly a weird dating world these days.