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My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my ch

by beat 7y ago

My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my children that I worry about. They're boy/girl twins, now 25. My daughter is in the process of breaking up with the boyfriend she's lived with for the past two years, and moving back home to re-settle her life. She has a career, and wants to get married and start a family sometime soon. Her boyfriend is a great person to be around and she adores him, but... he doesn't want kids (and is actually freaked out by them). He doesn't want marriage. And he can't keep himself organized enough to uphold his financial/personal responsibilities in cohabitation. So where is she going to find a potential partner who shares her social values, and wants a life partnership and a co-parent, who can uphold their responsibilities? She doesn't even know where to look. Her brother lives at home, and probably always will. He doesn't have a real career and can't adult well enough to live on his own, even if he had to. He has never been on a date, even, and lives for video games. What happens if he looks around one day and suddenly feels lonely for a family other than his aging parents? With no financial substance or adulting skills and no romantic experience, he's not much of a catch for partners his age. He'll have to take more family/household responsibility as he gets older, and that's fine, but what happens when his parents finally pass away and he's an old man? As a parent, these situations worry me greatly.

driven20 7y ago
Your son is 25. Shouldn't he have more responsibilities? Metaphorically speaking should you push him out of the nest? Or at least move towards that direction.
- Vadoff 7y ago
  Seriously. With food and shelter always taken of, there's no incentive for him to get a job or "adult" at all.
  - beat 7y ago
    That's a very shallow understanding of incentives. Case in point - his twin sister moved out as soon as she got herself a steady income to live on. But she also chooses to stay in town, and spend time with us multiple times a week. Why is that? Why did she come out differently?
    - kjsbfkjbf 7y ago
      That's American culture for you. Capitalists force a narrative that everyone is inherently "lazy" and will be good for nothing if not for the jobs/existential crises they so conveniently provided by the capitalists. I relate heavily to your description of your daughter (and am also the same age!). I have a great career by most standards and am independent but also prefer to be home and near my parents/extended family whenever I can. Why? Mostly because I enjoy their company, but even just being in the same house feels nice. In contrast the girls I have dated do not understand how I prioritize/spend so much time with my family instead of anyone/everything else. :shrug:
      - beat 7y ago
        My daughter is actually one of my best friends. I'd hang out with her even if we weren't related. I sometimes joke that I diluted her mother's genes to perfection...
        scruple 7y ago
        You're a wonderful person and you sound like a great parent. I have a good relationship with my parents today, especially my father. He and I are good friends. It's interesting, contrasted against the way he was raised and the relationship that he had with his father. Back then, the idea of a friendship wasn't even on the table. Anyway, I have nothing to really add here. I just wanted to say... I'm on the cusp of becoming a father, we're expecting our twins this weekend. You've given me a lot to think about with your story in these comments. Thanks for that.
      - danbolt 7y ago
        Not to discredit what you’re saying (because I think it’s valid!) but I’ve dated people that have had difficult relationships with their parents and I think being away from them has overall been a more positive solution for everybody. That said, I love spending time with my parents, but I know it’s not a one-relationship-model fits all for getting the most out of life.
- deleted 7y ago
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drugme 7y ago
She's 25? I wouldn't be worried.
empath75 7y ago
If it makes you feel better, I was still living with my parents at 24 and had never had a girlfriend and I am now happily married with two kids. Some people are late bloomers.
- 5874-4b22-a4e0 7y ago
  But it sounds like thier son is a f'ng looser. He would've had some sense beaten into him if his parents actually cared.
  - beat 7y ago
    My dad beat plenty of sense into me. What I learned was to stay the hell away from him and never treat my children the way he treated his. edit: I haven't spoken to my father in over 20 years, and I probably never will again. What finally turned me to this point was having children of my own. I saw what he really was then, and I was determined that he would never have a part in their lives. They're adults now and are free to contact him if they won't, but they know what I've told them about him, and they choose to keep the separation.
    - dang 7y ago
      Thanks for staying on an even keel despite how frustrating some of these replies must be.
      - beat 7y ago
        I keep telling myself I'm being criticized by a bunch of people who have obviously never raised children. :)
        el_benhameen 7y ago
        As someone much earlier than you in the process of raising children, I appreciate your insight and thoughtfulness. And as a human who was raised by people with similar insights and thoughtfulness, I appreciate you understanding and standing up for your kids.
desireco42 7y ago
I am in similar marriage /w 3 kids, I have younger kids who I believe have values like your daughter but I also worry that it will be much harder for them to find serious partners. My wife isn't worried, she believes things will work themselves out somehow. I don't think people who don't have kids can understand how concerning shift in values and attitudes is and can be for parents.
kop316 7y ago
If I may comment as a young(er) generation (I am early 30s now): I met who I wanted to marry when I was 29, and proposed to her at 30. I think she will be fine. I honestly think your daughter having to re-settle her life to find someone who shares the same wants in life out of her will lead to longer term happiness. When I was 25, I was dating someone long term whom it was kind of similar, I adored her, but ultimately we were not compatible. I am much happier now with the person I adore and am compatible with.
- benj111 7y ago
  "I think she will be fine" What a ringing endorsement of your wife :) (probably not what you meant though)
  - kop316 7y ago
    Hahaha sorry bad use of pronouns. I meant his daughter. My fiancée on the other hand still has time to figure out she can do way better than me.
opportune 7y ago
Your daughter is fine but unless your son is disabled / has other potential issues (like autism, severe depression) you need to get him on the right track. No 25 year old should be able to get away with the excuse of being unable to "adult well enough to live on his own". Your son of course has responsibility but that's really your problem to fix if he won't
- beat 7y ago
  He's pretty seriously autistic. One thing having twins did for me was push me way over to the nature side of nature vs nurture. They're so different, and always have been. And I don't expect to have more control over their lives than my parents had over mine at that age.
  - flahgd 7y ago
    What do you mean by seriously autistic? You said in another post he does tasks around the house and took care of your wife when she fell ill. A seriously autistic person would not be able to do that. A seriously autistic person would require constant adult supervision. Are you sure he's not just under-socialized and addicted to porn and video games? How does he spend his days? He might simply be a western hikikomori.
    - beat 7y ago
      Autistic enough to not function well in society. There's actually a middle ground between "just fine" and "has to wear a helmet".
      - flahgd 7y ago
        I don't mean to pry, but I'm kinda curious. What do you mean by function well in society? Some people with down syndrome can still live a semi-normal life and be employed, are you saying your son is worse than that? Can he talk to people? Can he drive?
        7y ago
vfinn 7y ago
I'm sorry to say this, but the tone in your voice towards your son sounds more detached than it should in my opinion. I mean, why would you let him slip into that bleak future you're describing for him? Shouldn't you be the one to wake him up, especially if he lives under your roof. I get it if you don't believe in discipline, but I think that's what is required here (or at least fatherly guidance).
- bytematic 7y ago
  If they are mid-twenties they have probably heard it a million different times in a million different ways, what do you do?
  - eckmlj 7y ago
    Kick him out. Having my parents cut off financial support to me was the kick in the ass I needed to get into shape. Best thing that ever happened to me.
    - deleted 7y ago
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  - buildzr 7y ago
    I know people like this - what's the solution? Do you just cut them loose and make them figure it out?
    - inetknght 7y ago
      Tough love is sometimes the best form of love. Be prepared to be resented; be prepared for the child to cut you out of their life. Accept it's their choice. You're probably giving them more choice than you ever have before. And it's scary for both of you. But it's literally the only way that some people can learn how to grow up.
ok_coo 7y ago
Your son's situation sounds a lot like my own, but I am married and maybe am a bit more responsible than him. :) So, we're a couple that doesn't want to / plan to have children and we've discussed the "getting old" thing before. What I regret about our American society is that it's no longer common to live together as an extended family. Why couldn't he live with his sister (or near her), after you're gone? What about other relatives? I think it's possible that, in the future, we'll see more communal living situations because I have a feeling there's a lot of GenX and younger people who aren't going to end up having children. Communities can be remade if people make the effort to come back together and live around one another again. I'm thinking of communities like the elderly have in Florida, but maybe people will start living together at a younger age? Just some thoughts I've had. I've seen the pain and the struggle around this (personally) and I'm hoping it's something that people start taking seriously soon.
- beat 7y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up living with his sister someday. They're pretty close, really. We had a talk about wills with the kids last year, and one question was "What should we do about the house? Do you kids want to keep it, or sell it for the money?", and they were both adamant about keeping the house they grew up in. In the meantime, part of my son's responsibility as we get older is taking care of his aging parents. Last summer, my wife had a serious knee injury that had her bedridden for a while and limited mobility for longer, and he had to step up then. We warned him that this was the first of many, and they'll get worse.
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ronnier 7y ago
Your daughter will be ok. She can go anywhere and immediately find social groups and have no issues finding dates — if she gets online she can literally have hundreds or thousands of men ready to take her out. It’s completely opposite for most men — isolated and hard to find social circles.
- rayiner 7y ago
  It’s easy for women to find dates. Much harder to find competent potential life partners who want to start a family.
  - commandlinefan 7y ago
    Well yeah, but... it's hard for men to find dates to begin with, and that's just the starting line for finding a competent potential life partner who want to start a family. I'm a parent of both a boy and a girl like OP, as well as a former single man - I do believe women have some disadvantages in modern society, but dating/romance is not one of them.
    - erikpukinskis 7y ago
      You’re making a fallacy here. You are saying “it’s easier for women to get 100 dates, therefore it’s easier for women to find what they want”. Your OP is saying, it’s easy for women to get 100 dates but out of 100 dates only 1 will be a sensible life partner. It may be harder for a man to get 10 dates than for a woman to get 100 but in those 10, half of them will be a sensible life partner. It’s a little like an advertising funnel: women have a source for getting lots of clicks, but few will be well qualified for a sale. Men have a harder time getting clicks, but generally when they do they are generally well qualified. You’re just thinking about the clicks as if that’s the only equation that matters but it’s a multiplication of two conversion rates, not one.
      - logfromblammo 7y ago
        In other words, women get a lot of "date spam". Imagine a heterosexual relationship dating pool of 100 men and 100 women. 40 of the men are date-spammers, and 5 of the women are date-spammers. They will all attempt a first date with anyone with a pulse. So each woman in the pool can easily get 40 dates, and each man in the pool can easily get 5 dates. These dates will likely not turn into long-term relationships, as the indiscriminate selection protocol does not correlate highly with sufficient investment into any particular relationship. In short order, each non-spammer semi-pool will adapt compensation and filtering strategies to avoid the date-spammers. As the women have a lower signal-to-noise ratio (1.5) than the men (19), their filter will be more brutal, and block more false positives. The hookup bros make it harder for the normal men to find dates, as they increase the strength of women's filters, and then they profit more strongly from mimicry of non-spammers in order to defeat the filters. With this hypothetical dating pool, the normal guys could cartelize, and join a dating site where men are only allowed a first date after a timeout interval of N days. New accounts have to wait N days before setting up a first date or accepting a date. While dating is in progress, the timeout clock stops at N days, communication with everyone else is suspended, and either person has to click on a "relationship ended" button--which notifies the other person--to start them up again. The ToS can penalize users with multiple accounts. It's rate-limiting dates, to stop the spammers.
brightball 7y ago
Should consider looking into an F3 workout group. Totally free men’s group.
graycat 7y ago
You know a LOT about life and family formation. Sooooo, teach your kids. You've identified some of their worst problems and no doubt have solutions that would work for you, so teach them what you know. For your daughter, lots of men DO want good love, home, and family -- she just needs to find one, likely 10-15 years older than she is (for the reason for the age difference, that needs some discussion I omit here). Where to find them? Try some parts of the educational institutions -- look for students or more likely the professors. And, try churches and their young adult groups. Volunteer in some promising organizations and meet men there. Get a job where meeting candidate men is likely. Get some girlfriends and swap ideas and lead with them. Try on-line. And I'm no expert: She should get with some experts. For your son, let him mature until his 30s, help him do that, socially, financially, in general maturity, and then have him meet a girl 10-20 years younger. If she is 20 years younger, then he will have to date her until she is 18 or so, but that's okay, too (just why needs some discussion omitted here). Mother nature and the lawyers agree: A women of 18 is old enough to get married, have kids, and do well at both. Then do your best as a grandfather: One of the biggest reasons the US just SUCKS for family formation (which it does, with the birth rate so low we're rapidly going extinct, literally) is that the parents don't get enough help from the grandparents. Or, one of the main ways a woman of 18 can be good at motherhood and marriage is that she has her mother, father, aunts, sisters, girlfriends, etc. all helping her. I read stacks of books about marriage. Far and away the best book I found was E. Fromm, The Art of Loving. It's famous, highly respected in the clinical psychology community, written in Vienna in 1946 (amazing that anything good happened in Vienna in 1946), is short, is easy to read except need to read it several times and between readings think and compare with examples you have seen in life. In Fromm, can see explanations of the couple (i) gives knowledge (thoughts and feelings) of themselves (often the most intimate part of the relationship), (ii) care about each other, (iii) respect each other, and (iv) respond to each other. Sooooo, can take (i)-(iv) and have a secret scorecard -- she how well she does on all four! Won't find a lot of really good grades on all four! But all four are easy if really want a good marriage, and often natural, that is, just happen spontaneously, when the feelings are really good. And if do well on all four, will likely zoom to the top 1% couples club. Then have activities, accomplishments, memories, traditions that like a lot, don't want to lose, can't get anywhere else, and that will bond the two together. Do well on those and move to the top 1 in 10,000 couples club. And pay attention to the traditional start of the marriage: "We gather together to join this man and this women with the bonds of Holy matrimony." So, there's supposed to be some joining and bonding -- actually a lot of both. It's not supposed to be just a tennis doubles team or two scorpions in a bottle. A lot of classic movies have some good insight into what makes women tick in love, home, marriage, and motherhood. So, go for Roman Holiday, Gone with the Wind, Father's Little Dividend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR-OkcqI8NU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR-OkcqI8NU and two Hallmark chick flicks The Magic of Ordinary Days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8AvLMIElKU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8AvLMIElKU Autumn Dreams https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI-ikF-Bdrg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI-ikF-Bdrg In each of these, can see where the women are mostly interested in love, home, and marriage and where, instead, they are mostly interested in something else. The last two, the chick flicks, make this interest dichotomy really clear -- the women start out with biggie interests OTHER than love, home, and marriage and, at the end of the movies, as they achieve success, they are putting love, home, and marriage first and the other interests secondary or lower. So, the suggestion is clear: She was going for a Ph.D. but that was largely INSTEAD of love, home, and marriage, and when she got love, ..., the Ph.D. was set aside. There is a hint, can debate, that a women going for a Ph.D. does that because she is NOT doing well with love, home, and marriage -- again need to debate that point, but the movies seem to have a clear position. So, in these movies there is some art as in "the communication, interpretation of human experience, emotion" with some good examples but also a lot of ambiguity. But if watch them all and compare and see what is in common, then will begin to see some of how women tick. Your son should do that. Maybe have him write some essays on what he concludes about women. After each movie, discuss with him the lessons you see in the movies about women. Hollywood is this and that, good and bad, but on some things, especially how women tick, the best of Hollywood, IMHO is just terrific, some of the best there is. I never cease to be amazed at the directors who were famous for directing women in movies -- how the heck they knew so much and got it up on the screen so that even naive boys could understand it. To be a husband in a good family just MUST have some good understanding of females, for the wife and the kids, the daughters and what teach the sons -- hint, as Fromm wrote: "Men and women deserve equal respect as persons but are not the same". Expert grand understatement of the century. Why need to understand? Because due to parts of the economy, transportation, and more the old patterns that DID work have broken down. Now largely have to build starting with nothing in norms, expectations, traditions, etc.
Joukahainen 7y ago
But, why you let your 25 year old son live in your house? You should have been kicked him out years ago. He can not adult ever if parents are pampering him forever.
Circuits 7y ago
Sounds to me like your son needs to learn a trade.
Taylor_OD 7y ago
Is the boyfriend 25? It took me until 25 to start being open to the idea of kids. I'm 27 now and actually open to the idea. I had never spent time with kids really. Having a niece and nephew helped a lot because I realized kids, while a lot of work, can bring a lot of joy.
- danbolt 7y ago
  That’s really interesting. What made you feel that your mind changed? When I was 25 I was much more open to children, but now at 27 I’m very sure I don’t want to have them.
  - Taylor_OD 7y ago
    Getting to know my niece and nephew. And talking to my brother in law as the kids grew up. I remember asking, "Doesn't the crying annoy you?" And he said something like, "You know I thought it would but when it's my kid it just sounds different. I don't get annoyed I just feel for them and want to do whatever I can to make them feel okay again." Conversations like that and the emotional connection I have with their little ones made me realize it might be worth it. At 27 I feel even more strongly. I'm still not ready to have kids but I feel a draw to it now.
sizzle 7y ago
What has your son been doing since turning 18? Did you try to lay out a foundation in teaching him life skills/weaning him off of financial support so he can learn the value of a dollar? I understand disabilities and disorders can hold adult children back, if that isn't the case I'm curious where things went off the rails, as a soon to be first time dad myself. This stuff worries me, that regardless of all the investment and good parenting in the world, that my kid(s) can fail to thrive.
- beat 7y ago
  Pretty severe autism. The main reason we never just kicked him out is because he really can't function on his own. He'd suck at being homeless. That was hard for me to get used to, as I've been on my own since I was 18. And his sister moved out as soon as it was practical for her, although she lives just minutes away and we see her at least weekly. And if there's one piece of parenting advice I can offer, it's this... your kids are their own people. Parents only have just so much control. (The flip side is also true; at a certain point, you can't just blame your parents for your own life.)
  - souprock 7y ago
    I might have one like that, unless you mean the non-verbal type. He has to go soon, probably age 20 at the end of summer. He did just barely manage an AA degree, so perhaps he is better off than yours. He is sometimes wildly inappropriate. He has to go for lots of reasons. One is that I'll have 11 other kids to devote my resources to. Another is that a bit more of a push might get him to fly. Another is that I've seen my two youngest brothers still living with my parents, and it horrifies me. While one of my brothers has an excuse (needs watching for schizophrenia medication), the younger of the two has no excuse: over 30, has an MS in computer science, badly addicted to video games. The video games really do provide an escape from activities that would require learning social skills. If your social skills are bad, you might want that escape, but that isn't making the situation any better.
    - sizzle 7y ago
      If you don't mind me asking, how did you get in the position of providing for 11 children? This sounds like a remarkable story.
esoterica 7y ago
25 is very young. You’re not going to find many urban, college-educated 25 year olds willing to start a family that early.
- HBKXNCUO 7y ago
  Not as far as fertility is concerned. 25 means only a couple of years left at peak fertility.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    What is "Peak fertility"? That's at least 10 more years for women before they even become higher risk.
    - stronglikedan 7y ago
      at least 10 more years More like 20. Women are safely birthing children well into their 40's nowadays. The old "safe" age limits (generally up to 40) are no longer considered to be relevant.
      - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
        You're right - downs syndrome chance does increase with age, but yeah, there's a ton of fertile years left. 25 is not nearing the end of anything.
        HBKXNCUO 7y ago
        >there's a ton of fertile years left. There might be, there might not be. There will likely not be many years left where the woman is most easily able to conceive a child.
        SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
        At age 35, there's still 84% odds over 5 years - that's still waayy in the majority of "going to have a baby".
KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
Your son's issue may be exacerbated by video game addiction. As a game developer I know exactly how effective our methods are.
- abledon 7y ago
  what are your thoughts on League of Legends?
kodz4 7y ago
You gotta kick them out. Unless they get cancer or are struck by lightning this kind of babysitting of 25 year olds does more damage than good. And with Mom and Dad around taking care of things there is zero motivation to make mistakes, learn from them and figure anything out.
sonnyblarney 7y ago
Sometimes dudes need something to 'flip' them into activity, saying this as a dude myself, so I can't speak for the ladies. A family member of mine smoked pot and lived in a van a skiied the backtrails for 10 years (!!!) and then poof got his CA way late in life and is not 'caught up' in his career. Another peer worked in marketing, hated it, went to work stoned. Then one day 'poof' he got serious, was a manager (it was a rapidly growing company), Director then VP within a few years. Sometimes I think 'guys need a reason', and for many it just comes along. If your kids are safe, healthy, decent people and not in existential trouble with the law etc., consider yourself fortunate in a way, it could be much worse. '20's are the new teens' anyhow. 25 is still very young.
- beat 7y ago
  Yeah. In a way, I really admire his focus. His life has everything he cares about, and he ruthlessly ignores everything that doesn't actually matter to him. And he's smart, capable of incredible focus, and can interact with people in structured ways (he works in retail and is actually good at it). Maybe someday he'll decide to aim it somewhere else.
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jackjoness 7y ago
I'm a boy, 24, and willing to have many kids, your daughter sounds like a girl I'd like to have.

by beat 7y ago

driven20 7y ago

Your son is 25. Shouldn't he have more responsibilities? Metaphorically speaking should you push him out of the nest? Or at least move towards that direction.

Vadoff 7y ago
Seriously. With food and shelter always taken of, there's no incentive for him to get a job or "adult" at all.
- beat 7y ago
  That's a very shallow understanding of incentives. Case in point - his twin sister moved out as soon as she got herself a steady income to live on. But she also chooses to stay in town, and spend time with us multiple times a week. Why is that? Why did she come out differently?
  - kjsbfkjbf 7y ago
    That's American culture for you. Capitalists force a narrative that everyone is inherently "lazy" and will be good for nothing if not for the jobs/existential crises they so conveniently provided by the capitalists. I relate heavily to your description of your daughter (and am also the same age!). I have a great career by most standards and am independent but also prefer to be home and near my parents/extended family whenever I can. Why? Mostly because I enjoy their company, but even just being in the same house feels nice. In contrast the girls I have dated do not understand how I prioritize/spend so much time with my family instead of anyone/everything else. :shrug:
    - beat 7y ago
      My daughter is actually one of my best friends. I'd hang out with her even if we weren't related. I sometimes joke that I diluted her mother's genes to perfection...
      - scruple 7y ago
        You're a wonderful person and you sound like a great parent. I have a good relationship with my parents today, especially my father. He and I are good friends. It's interesting, contrasted against the way he was raised and the relationship that he had with his father. Back then, the idea of a friendship wasn't even on the table. Anyway, I have nothing to really add here. I just wanted to say... I'm on the cusp of becoming a father, we're expecting our twins this weekend. You've given me a lot to think about with your story in these comments. Thanks for that.
    - danbolt 7y ago
      Not to discredit what you’re saying (because I think it’s valid!) but I’ve dated people that have had difficult relationships with their parents and I think being away from them has overall been a more positive solution for everybody. That said, I love spending time with my parents, but I know it’s not a one-relationship-model fits all for getting the most out of life.
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drugme 7y ago

She's 25? I wouldn't be worried.

empath75 7y ago

If it makes you feel better, I was still living with my parents at 24 and had never had a girlfriend and I am now happily married with two kids. Some people are late bloomers.

5874-4b22-a4e0 7y ago
But it sounds like thier son is a f'ng looser. He would've had some sense beaten into him if his parents actually cared.
- beat 7y ago
  My dad beat plenty of sense into me. What I learned was to stay the hell away from him and never treat my children the way he treated his. edit: I haven't spoken to my father in over 20 years, and I probably never will again. What finally turned me to this point was having children of my own. I saw what he really was then, and I was determined that he would never have a part in their lives. They're adults now and are free to contact him if they won't, but they know what I've told them about him, and they choose to keep the separation.
  - dang 7y ago
    Thanks for staying on an even keel despite how frustrating some of these replies must be.
    - beat 7y ago
      I keep telling myself I'm being criticized by a bunch of people who have obviously never raised children. :)
      - el_benhameen 7y ago
        As someone much earlier than you in the process of raising children, I appreciate your insight and thoughtfulness. And as a human who was raised by people with similar insights and thoughtfulness, I appreciate you understanding and standing up for your kids.

desireco42 7y ago

I am in similar marriage /w 3 kids, I have younger kids who I believe have values like your daughter but I also worry that it will be much harder for them to find serious partners. My wife isn't worried, she believes things will work themselves out somehow. I don't think people who don't have kids can understand how concerning shift in values and attitudes is and can be for parents.

kop316 7y ago

If I may comment as a young(er) generation (I am early 30s now): I met who I wanted to marry when I was 29, and proposed to her at 30. I think she will be fine. I honestly think your daughter having to re-settle her life to find someone who shares the same wants in life out of her will lead to longer term happiness. When I was 25, I was dating someone long term whom it was kind of similar, I adored her, but ultimately we were not compatible. I am much happier now with the person I adore and am compatible with.

benj111 7y ago
"I think she will be fine" What a ringing endorsement of your wife :) (probably not what you meant though)
- kop316 7y ago
  Hahaha sorry bad use of pronouns. I meant his daughter. My fiancée on the other hand still has time to figure out she can do way better than me.

opportune 7y ago

Your daughter is fine but unless your son is disabled / has other potential issues (like autism, severe depression) you need to get him on the right track. No 25 year old should be able to get away with the excuse of being unable to "adult well enough to live on his own". Your son of course has responsibility but that's really your problem to fix if he won't

beat 7y ago
He's pretty seriously autistic. One thing having twins did for me was push me way over to the nature side of nature vs nurture. They're so different, and always have been. And I don't expect to have more control over their lives than my parents had over mine at that age.
- flahgd 7y ago
  What do you mean by seriously autistic? You said in another post he does tasks around the house and took care of your wife when she fell ill. A seriously autistic person would not be able to do that. A seriously autistic person would require constant adult supervision. Are you sure he's not just under-socialized and addicted to porn and video games? How does he spend his days? He might simply be a western hikikomori.
  - beat 7y ago
    Autistic enough to not function well in society. There's actually a middle ground between "just fine" and "has to wear a helmet".
    - flahgd 7y ago
      I don't mean to pry, but I'm kinda curious. What do you mean by function well in society? Some people with down syndrome can still live a semi-normal life and be employed, are you saying your son is worse than that? Can he talk to people? Can he drive?
      - 7y ago

vfinn 7y ago

I'm sorry to say this, but the tone in your voice towards your son sounds more detached than it should in my opinion. I mean, why would you let him slip into that bleak future you're describing for him? Shouldn't you be the one to wake him up, especially if he lives under your roof. I get it if you don't believe in discipline, but I think that's what is required here (or at least fatherly guidance).

bytematic 7y ago
If they are mid-twenties they have probably heard it a million different times in a million different ways, what do you do?
- eckmlj 7y ago
  Kick him out. Having my parents cut off financial support to me was the kick in the ass I needed to get into shape. Best thing that ever happened to me.
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- buildzr 7y ago
  I know people like this - what's the solution? Do you just cut them loose and make them figure it out?
  - inetknght 7y ago
    Tough love is sometimes the best form of love. Be prepared to be resented; be prepared for the child to cut you out of their life. Accept it's their choice. You're probably giving them more choice than you ever have before. And it's scary for both of you. But it's literally the only way that some people can learn how to grow up.

ok_coo 7y ago

Your son's situation sounds a lot like my own, but I am married and maybe am a bit more responsible than him. :) So, we're a couple that doesn't want to / plan to have children and we've discussed the "getting old" thing before. What I regret about our American society is that it's no longer common to live together as an extended family. Why couldn't he live with his sister (or near her), after you're gone? What about other relatives? I think it's possible that, in the future, we'll see more communal living situations because I have a feeling there's a lot of GenX and younger people who aren't going to end up having children. Communities can be remade if people make the effort to come back together and live around one another again. I'm thinking of communities like the elderly have in Florida, but maybe people will start living together at a younger age? Just some thoughts I've had. I've seen the pain and the struggle around this (personally) and I'm hoping it's something that people start taking seriously soon.

beat 7y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up living with his sister someday. They're pretty close, really. We had a talk about wills with the kids last year, and one question was "What should we do about the house? Do you kids want to keep it, or sell it for the money?", and they were both adamant about keeping the house they grew up in. In the meantime, part of my son's responsibility as we get older is taking care of his aging parents. Last summer, my wife had a serious knee injury that had her bedridden for a while and limited mobility for longer, and he had to step up then. We warned him that this was the first of many, and they'll get worse.
- deleted 7y ago
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ronnier 7y ago

Your daughter will be ok. She can go anywhere and immediately find social groups and have no issues finding dates — if she gets online she can literally have hundreds or thousands of men ready to take her out. It’s completely opposite for most men — isolated and hard to find social circles.

rayiner 7y ago
It’s easy for women to find dates. Much harder to find competent potential life partners who want to start a family.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  Well yeah, but... it's hard for men to find dates to begin with, and that's just the starting line for finding a competent potential life partner who want to start a family. I'm a parent of both a boy and a girl like OP, as well as a former single man - I do believe women have some disadvantages in modern society, but dating/romance is not one of them.
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    You’re making a fallacy here. You are saying “it’s easier for women to get 100 dates, therefore it’s easier for women to find what they want”. Your OP is saying, it’s easy for women to get 100 dates but out of 100 dates only 1 will be a sensible life partner. It may be harder for a man to get 10 dates than for a woman to get 100 but in those 10, half of them will be a sensible life partner. It’s a little like an advertising funnel: women have a source for getting lots of clicks, but few will be well qualified for a sale. Men have a harder time getting clicks, but generally when they do they are generally well qualified. You’re just thinking about the clicks as if that’s the only equation that matters but it’s a multiplication of two conversion rates, not one.
    - logfromblammo 7y ago
      In other words, women get a lot of "date spam". Imagine a heterosexual relationship dating pool of 100 men and 100 women. 40 of the men are date-spammers, and 5 of the women are date-spammers. They will all attempt a first date with anyone with a pulse. So each woman in the pool can easily get 40 dates, and each man in the pool can easily get 5 dates. These dates will likely not turn into long-term relationships, as the indiscriminate selection protocol does not correlate highly with sufficient investment into any particular relationship. In short order, each non-spammer semi-pool will adapt compensation and filtering strategies to avoid the date-spammers. As the women have a lower signal-to-noise ratio (1.5) than the men (19), their filter will be more brutal, and block more false positives. The hookup bros make it harder for the normal men to find dates, as they increase the strength of women's filters, and then they profit more strongly from mimicry of non-spammers in order to defeat the filters. With this hypothetical dating pool, the normal guys could cartelize, and join a dating site where men are only allowed a first date after a timeout interval of N days. New accounts have to wait N days before setting up a first date or accepting a date. While dating is in progress, the timeout clock stops at N days, communication with everyone else is suspended, and either person has to click on a "relationship ended" button--which notifies the other person--to start them up again. The ToS can penalize users with multiple accounts. It's rate-limiting dates, to stop the spammers.

brightball 7y ago

Should consider looking into an F3 workout group. Totally free men’s group.

graycat 7y ago

You know a LOT about life and family formation. Sooooo, teach your kids. You've identified some of their worst problems and no doubt have solutions that would work for you, so teach them what you know. For your daughter, lots of men DO want good love, home, and family -- she just needs to find one, likely 10-15 years older than she is (for the reason for the age difference, that needs some discussion I omit here). Where to find them? Try some parts of the educational institutions -- look for students or more likely the professors. And, try churches and their young adult groups. Volunteer in some promising organizations and meet men there. Get a job where meeting candidate men is likely. Get some girlfriends and swap ideas and lead with them. Try on-line. And I'm no expert: She should get with some experts. For your son, let him mature until his 30s, help him do that, socially, financially, in general maturity, and then have him meet a girl 10-20 years younger. If she is 20 years younger, then he will have to date her until she is 18 or so, but that's okay, too (just why needs some discussion omitted here). Mother nature and the lawyers agree: A women of 18 is old enough to get married, have kids, and do well at both. Then do your best as a grandfather: One of the biggest reasons the US just SUCKS for family formation (which it does, with the birth rate so low we're rapidly going extinct, literally) is that the parents don't get enough help from the grandparents. Or, one of the main ways a woman of 18 can be good at motherhood and marriage is that she has her mother, father, aunts, sisters, girlfriends, etc. all helping her. I read stacks of books about marriage. Far and away the best book I found was E. Fromm, The Art of Loving. It's famous, highly respected in the clinical psychology community, written in Vienna in 1946 (amazing that anything good happened in Vienna in 1946), is short, is easy to read except need to read it several times and between readings think and compare with examples you have seen in life. In Fromm, can see explanations of the couple (i) gives knowledge (thoughts and feelings) of themselves (often the most intimate part of the relationship), (ii) care about each other, (iii) respect each other, and (iv) respond to each other. Sooooo, can take (i)-(iv) and have a secret scorecard -- she how well she does on all four! Won't find a lot of really good grades on all four! But all four are easy if really want a good marriage, and often natural, that is, just happen spontaneously, when the feelings are really good. And if do well on all four, will likely zoom to the top 1% couples club. Then have activities, accomplishments, memories, traditions that like a lot, don't want to lose, can't get anywhere else, and that will bond the two together. Do well on those and move to the top 1 in 10,000 couples club. And pay attention to the traditional start of the marriage: "We gather together to join this man and this women with the bonds of Holy matrimony." So, there's supposed to be some joining and bonding -- actually a lot of both. It's not supposed to be just a tennis doubles team or two scorpions in a bottle. A lot of classic movies have some good insight into what makes women tick in love, home, marriage, and motherhood. So, go for Roman Holiday, Gone with the Wind, Father's Little Dividend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR-OkcqI8NU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR-OkcqI8NU and two Hallmark chick flicks The Magic of Ordinary Days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8AvLMIElKU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8AvLMIElKU Autumn Dreams https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI-ikF-Bdrg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI-ikF-Bdrg In each of these, can see where the women are mostly interested in love, home, and marriage and where, instead, they are mostly interested in something else. The last two, the chick flicks, make this interest dichotomy really clear -- the women start out with biggie interests OTHER than love, home, and marriage and, at the end of the movies, as they achieve success, they are putting love, home, and marriage first and the other interests secondary or lower. So, the suggestion is clear: She was going for a Ph.D. but that was largely INSTEAD of love, home, and marriage, and when she got love, ..., the Ph.D. was set aside. There is a hint, can debate, that a women going for a Ph.D. does that because she is NOT doing well with love, home, and marriage -- again need to debate that point, but the movies seem to have a clear position. So, in these movies there is some art as in "the communication, interpretation of human experience, emotion" with some good examples but also a lot of ambiguity. But if watch them all and compare and see what is in common, then will begin to see some of how women tick. Your son should do that. Maybe have him write some essays on what he concludes about women. After each movie, discuss with him the lessons you see in the movies about women. Hollywood is this and that, good and bad, but on some things, especially how women tick, the best of Hollywood, IMHO is just terrific, some of the best there is. I never cease to be amazed at the directors who were famous for directing women in movies -- how the heck they knew so much and got it up on the screen so that even naive boys could understand it. To be a husband in a good family just MUST have some good understanding of females, for the wife and the kids, the daughters and what teach the sons -- hint, as Fromm wrote: "Men and women deserve equal respect as persons but are not the same". Expert grand understatement of the century. Why need to understand? Because due to parts of the economy, transportation, and more the old patterns that DID work have broken down. Now largely have to build starting with nothing in norms, expectations, traditions, etc.

Joukahainen 7y ago

But, why you let your 25 year old son live in your house? You should have been kicked him out years ago. He can not adult ever if parents are pampering him forever.

Circuits 7y ago

Sounds to me like your son needs to learn a trade.

Taylor_OD 7y ago

Is the boyfriend 25? It took me until 25 to start being open to the idea of kids. I'm 27 now and actually open to the idea. I had never spent time with kids really. Having a niece and nephew helped a lot because I realized kids, while a lot of work, can bring a lot of joy.

danbolt 7y ago
That’s really interesting. What made you feel that your mind changed? When I was 25 I was much more open to children, but now at 27 I’m very sure I don’t want to have them.
- Taylor_OD 7y ago
  Getting to know my niece and nephew. And talking to my brother in law as the kids grew up. I remember asking, "Doesn't the crying annoy you?" And he said something like, "You know I thought it would but when it's my kid it just sounds different. I don't get annoyed I just feel for them and want to do whatever I can to make them feel okay again." Conversations like that and the emotional connection I have with their little ones made me realize it might be worth it. At 27 I feel even more strongly. I'm still not ready to have kids but I feel a draw to it now.

sizzle 7y ago

What has your son been doing since turning 18? Did you try to lay out a foundation in teaching him life skills/weaning him off of financial support so he can learn the value of a dollar? I understand disabilities and disorders can hold adult children back, if that isn't the case I'm curious where things went off the rails, as a soon to be first time dad myself. This stuff worries me, that regardless of all the investment and good parenting in the world, that my kid(s) can fail to thrive.

beat 7y ago
Pretty severe autism. The main reason we never just kicked him out is because he really can't function on his own. He'd suck at being homeless. That was hard for me to get used to, as I've been on my own since I was 18. And his sister moved out as soon as it was practical for her, although she lives just minutes away and we see her at least weekly. And if there's one piece of parenting advice I can offer, it's this... your kids are their own people. Parents only have just so much control. (The flip side is also true; at a certain point, you can't just blame your parents for your own life.)
- souprock 7y ago
  I might have one like that, unless you mean the non-verbal type. He has to go soon, probably age 20 at the end of summer. He did just barely manage an AA degree, so perhaps he is better off than yours. He is sometimes wildly inappropriate. He has to go for lots of reasons. One is that I'll have 11 other kids to devote my resources to. Another is that a bit more of a push might get him to fly. Another is that I've seen my two youngest brothers still living with my parents, and it horrifies me. While one of my brothers has an excuse (needs watching for schizophrenia medication), the younger of the two has no excuse: over 30, has an MS in computer science, badly addicted to video games. The video games really do provide an escape from activities that would require learning social skills. If your social skills are bad, you might want that escape, but that isn't making the situation any better.
  - sizzle 7y ago
    If you don't mind me asking, how did you get in the position of providing for 11 children? This sounds like a remarkable story.

esoterica 7y ago

25 is very young. You’re not going to find many urban, college-educated 25 year olds willing to start a family that early.

HBKXNCUO 7y ago
Not as far as fertility is concerned. 25 means only a couple of years left at peak fertility.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  What is "Peak fertility"? That's at least 10 more years for women before they even become higher risk.
  - stronglikedan 7y ago
    at least 10 more years More like 20. Women are safely birthing children well into their 40's nowadays. The old "safe" age limits (generally up to 40) are no longer considered to be relevant.
    - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
      You're right - downs syndrome chance does increase with age, but yeah, there's a ton of fertile years left. 25 is not nearing the end of anything.
      - HBKXNCUO 7y ago
        >there's a ton of fertile years left. There might be, there might not be. There will likely not be many years left where the woman is most easily able to conceive a child.
        SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
        At age 35, there's still 84% odds over 5 years - that's still waayy in the majority of "going to have a baby".

KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago

Your son's issue may be exacerbated by video game addiction. As a game developer I know exactly how effective our methods are.

abledon 7y ago
what are your thoughts on League of Legends?

kodz4 7y ago

You gotta kick them out. Unless they get cancer or are struck by lightning this kind of babysitting of 25 year olds does more damage than good. And with Mom and Dad around taking care of things there is zero motivation to make mistakes, learn from them and figure anything out.

sonnyblarney 7y ago

Sometimes dudes need something to 'flip' them into activity, saying this as a dude myself, so I can't speak for the ladies. A family member of mine smoked pot and lived in a van a skiied the backtrails for 10 years (!!!) and then poof got his CA way late in life and is not 'caught up' in his career. Another peer worked in marketing, hated it, went to work stoned. Then one day 'poof' he got serious, was a manager (it was a rapidly growing company), Director then VP within a few years. Sometimes I think 'guys need a reason', and for many it just comes along. If your kids are safe, healthy, decent people and not in existential trouble with the law etc., consider yourself fortunate in a way, it could be much worse. '20's are the new teens' anyhow. 25 is still very young.

beat 7y ago
Yeah. In a way, I really admire his focus. His life has everything he cares about, and he ruthlessly ignores everything that doesn't actually matter to him. And he's smart, capable of incredible focus, and can interact with people in structured ways (he works in retail and is actually good at it). Maybe someday he'll decide to aim it somewhere else.

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jackjoness 7y ago

I'm a boy, 24, and willing to have many kids, your daughter sounds like a girl I'd like to have.