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I think having kids is scientifically proven to make you unhappy and greatly increase your stress levels. It’s no wonder people just put off having kids until t

I think having kids is scientifically proven to make you unhappy and greatly increase your stress levels. It’s no wonder people just put off having kids until they can, or pass on having them altogether.

1zee 7y ago
That's a pretty general, sweeping claim to make without a source.
- crooked-v 7y ago
  Current data suggests that net unhappiness is associated with raising children, but it's because of the cost of raising children and not the children themselves. https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/02/cost-raising-kids-parents-happiness/583699/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/02/cost-rais...
  - Barrin92 7y ago
    >but it's because of the cost of raising children and not the children themselves that's the equivalent of saying "if I control for skin colour I observe no discrimination". The cost of raising children both financially and in time, is intrinsically linked to raising children. It is often asserted that spousal relationships suffer from the routine chores that come with raising children, and that is not going away. Don't control for the thing you want to measure.
    - gubbrora 7y ago
      It suggests that "children leads to unhappiness" is a property of how society is currently set up and not a universal truth.
- sharkmerry 7y ago
  i agree, i found this from quick search.. somewhat supports him/her. Havent delved into the studies wholly yet https://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/why-does-anyone-have-children/ https://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/why-does-anyo...
jerkstate 7y ago
Conflating happiness (immediate) with satisfaction (long-term) is exactly the problem, nicely illustrated.
- Toine 7y ago
  I wish I could upvote a 100 times.
ogig 7y ago
Anecdote; my kid is my greatest source of happiness.
biohax2015 7y ago
If it's scientifically proven, there should be some research backing it up. Do you have a link to that research? You cannot just say things like this without providing evidence.
rayiner 7y ago
It's very complicated. Having kids at home makes you less happy (because they're work). But men who have had kids are significantly happier than men who never had kids once the kids are out of the house: https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-having-children-make-people-happier-in-the-long-run https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-having-children-make-people-... > By the time the 2016 survey rolled around, fathers were 40% more likely than childless men to see themselves as very happy. "Happiness" is also not the right concept here. Having kids doesn't necessarily make you "happy." But it's something people almost universally want: https://news.gallup.com/poll/164618/desire-children-norm.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/164618/desire-children-norm.asp.... By age 45, 86% of people have had kids, and only 6% of those wish they had not had kids. By contrast, out of those who didn't have kids, more than half wish they did. Even more remarkably, among all adults age 45+, as many people wish they had five or more kids as wish they had no kids (11%). There is pretty much no other life choice (college, career, etc.) that almost every body does that almost nobody regrets.
- aianus 7y ago
  > only 6% of those wish they had not had kids It's very socially unacceptable to admit you regret having had your kids. Even to an anonymous stranger conducting a phone poll. I am much more inclined to believe studies that ask for self-reported happiness and compare to life events / states like childlessness without directly asking "do you regret your kids". From what I understand, having children is negatively correlated with happiness in those sorts of studies.
  - halter73 7y ago
    > I am much more inclined to believe studies that ask for self-reported happiness and compare to life events / states like childlessness without directly asking "do you regret your kids". Did you reply to the wrong comment? That's why the parent poster led with this quote from IFS: > By the time the 2016 survey rolled around, fathers were 40% more likely than childless men to see themselves as very happy.
    - aianus 7y ago
kaitai 7y ago
The "science" you're referring to shows that parenting makes people less "happy" in any given moment while doing it and more "content" overall, more "satisfied" in older age. Moreover, there are significant country-by-country differences in these stats that seem to be tied to availability of high-quality, low-cost childcare and healthcare. One place to look for some overview of some of these studies is https://contemporaryfamilies.org/brief-parenting-happiness/ https://contemporaryfamilies.org/brief-parenting-happiness/
- WalterGR 7y ago
  Why did you put science in scare quotes?
  - jfengel 7y ago
    I think the intention is a quote rather than a scare quote. It's a little awkward to quote a single word like that. In that circumstance the following words "... you're referring to" serve the same function. But it does highlight the notion of "you were looking for science, here is science".
  - Goronmon 7y ago
    Probably referencing the use of the phrase "scientifically proven" and doubting the assertion being made and that there is in fact "science" that backs it up.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  It's the cost not the kids: > Having children makes people happier—if they can afford it. * https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/02/cost-raising-kids-parents-happiness/583699/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/02/cost-rais...
Ascetik 7y ago
That's the biggest crock I've ever read on HN. Where did this "science" come from? A bunch of self-obsessed journalists I'm sure or maybe /r/childfree? The people who are unhappy with kids are the people who are unhappy, depressed and bitter to begin with, lacking all empathy. You have to be a pretty self-absorbed individual to not love the innocence and charm of children. Every person I know with a family loves their children to death and are very content and happy. Happiness consists in pursuing the ultimate unchanging good and increasing in virtue, nothing passing in this life can give you ultimate everlasting happiness. It is a philosophical, metaphysical and theological question, not a question of children, free-time or money. Children are a good thing, but they're not the ultimate object whereby one becomes happy.
brianmc21 7y ago
I feel as though having children will make a lot of people very happy. But there is also a significant part(>1%) of the population that would be miserable. I believe a lot of the unhappiness is often from someone who was pressured into a choice they didn't critically think about or didn't want but caved in. Even if the pool of people is small the experience could be quite negative. Where as all the people who always wanted them will be happy. I took care of my brother and sisters a lot as a child and it made it very clear that I never wanted children.
- moorhosj 7y ago
  ==I took care of my brother and sisters a lot as a child and it made it very clear that I never wanted children.== Being a parent is not the same as taking care of your siblings. Using the experience of one to justify your decisions in another is short-sighted. How many parents have you ever heard say, "I wish I didn't have kids"?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - vict00ms 7y ago
    I've heard a lot of parents say something along those lines, though usually softened a bit: "I love my kids but if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't have had them."
    - Melchizedek 7y ago
      They love their kids but they would have preferred that their kids never existed? That doesn't sound like love.
      - projektir 7y ago
        Well, this reaction explains why people don't like to say it.
  - 7y ago
zaccus 7y ago
There's no way to objectively measure happiness, so no that hasn't been proven. Personally, I've found having a kid to be less stressful, less expensive, and more rewarding than my college/career experience. I'm happier now than I ever was before. Yeah it's hard sometimes, but what isn't?
camelNotation 7y ago
I have less than five kids, but more than one kid. My kids cause me a lot of stress. The burden of knowing I have to deal with them and their energetic, ridiculous antics every day when I get home really drains me. I don't really have time to exercise anymore because from sun-up to sundown I am dealing with them, so I'm slightly overweight and out of shape in a way I was not before I had kids. My diet isn't as diverse as it was before I had kids either because I can't go to the same places I used to or take the time to prepare what I used to prepare. I've stayed in the job I have now for longer than I should just because I worry about keeping a steady salary, paying my bills, and caring for my kids more than I ever worried about those things before. I don't spend a lot of money on self-care or personal enjoyment anymore because I need to save it in case something goes wrong and I need to spend the money on them. Am I less happy? YES. I am less happy than before. But if I was given the choice to go back, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even consider it. Not even for a millisecond. I don't know why and I really don't need to know why, but having kids is just better than being happy. I don't want to be happy, I want to be a good dad. It's true that being a parent makes you less happy, but it also makes happiness irrelevant (for the most part). It probably has something to do with evolution.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  Well, you have to make time for things you want to do. What we have done raising our kids is that we have one parent going to the gym, the other one is taking care of kids. You can do it if you are committed. Do not give up! Yes, it is rewarding to be a parent at the end of the day when they fall asleep. :)
- criddell 7y ago
  > But if I was given the choice to go back, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even consider it. There's a speech in the movie Parenthood [1] that expresses a lot of what you just said. With a kid (or kids), the highs are higher, the lows lower. Some want to be on a roller coaster, others are happier on a merry-go-round. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z18vJwmxFFY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z18vJwmxFFY
  - camelNotation 7y ago
avip 7y ago
Happiness is overrated.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  And Purpose is underrated.
antisthenes 7y ago
Leaving aside the fact that you have not substantiated your claim, it could very well be that having kids in America makes you miserable, because the safety net is gutted or non-existent. There is almost no maternal/paternal leave, health care costs are astronomical, so are child care costs, which are almost necessary, because the normal multi-generational family has been systematically destroyed over the last half-century, both with advertising and economic pressure. Not to mention the lack of compromising skills in both partners, which has been exacerbated by identity politics. So yes, in context, maybe having kids is miserable* *with caveats and not everywhere.
umvi 7y ago
That's like saying it's scientifically proven that people who invest are poorer than people who hoard their cash (and don't invest). True in the short term, false in the long term.
joshuamcginnis 7y ago
Wouldn't that also contradict the biological imperative to pass on our genes? If having children had an overall and prolonged negative impact on your stress levels, it would also impede humans' ability to effectively procreate since stress has a direct impact on life expectancy and fertility. I can understand that in the short-term, that might be the case, but over a longer period (say the last 10k years) it does not appear to be true.
- olalonde 7y ago
  The stronger "biological imperative" is to have sex; birth control is quite a recent invention. And once you had kids, it doesn't matter that your life expectancy or fertility drops a bit because your genes are already passed on.
tracker1 7y ago
IIRC, married couples with children have some of the highest happiness indexes of the entire world.
asdff 7y ago
Having kids takes a lot of time and money. If you work till 5 you need to pay for childcare, which isn't cheap at all and might even be akin to doubling your rent. Mom is also working so you can't just unload domestic work and childcare to someone else to worry about. If you are entry level chances are you need to get there before the boss and stay there after if you ever want to not be entry level, and work weekends during busy season, so even that 40hr week can go up to 50-60. If you are a woman asking for maternity leave in an entry level job could jeopardize your entire career trajectory. Even in superficially liberal SF, VC firms have been known to discriminate against women entrepreneurs just from the possibility that they might be pregnant one day. People can scarcely keep housing costs below 30% of their net income. People are waiting until they have more money and a job that actually gives them time to raise a family. The real reason why people are putting off having kids is that it's not 1950 anymore.

1zee 7y ago

That's a pretty general, sweeping claim to make without a source.

crooked-v 7y ago
Current data suggests that net unhappiness is associated with raising children, but it's because of the cost of raising children and not the children themselves. https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/02/cost-raising-kids-parents-happiness/583699/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/02/cost-rais...
- Barrin92 7y ago
  >but it's because of the cost of raising children and not the children themselves that's the equivalent of saying "if I control for skin colour I observe no discrimination". The cost of raising children both financially and in time, is intrinsically linked to raising children. It is often asserted that spousal relationships suffer from the routine chores that come with raising children, and that is not going away. Don't control for the thing you want to measure.
  - gubbrora 7y ago
    It suggests that "children leads to unhappiness" is a property of how society is currently set up and not a universal truth.
sharkmerry 7y ago
i agree, i found this from quick search.. somewhat supports him/her. Havent delved into the studies wholly yet https://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/why-does-anyone-have-children/ https://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/01/why-does-anyo...

jerkstate 7y ago

Conflating happiness (immediate) with satisfaction (long-term) is exactly the problem, nicely illustrated.

Toine 7y ago
I wish I could upvote a 100 times.

ogig 7y ago

Anecdote; my kid is my greatest source of happiness.

biohax2015 7y ago

If it's scientifically proven, there should be some research backing it up. Do you have a link to that research? You cannot just say things like this without providing evidence.

rayiner 7y ago

It's very complicated. Having kids at home makes you less happy (because they're work). But men who have had kids are significantly happier than men who never had kids once the kids are out of the house: https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-having-children-make-people-happier-in-the-long-run https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-having-children-make-people-... > By the time the 2016 survey rolled around, fathers were 40% more likely than childless men to see themselves as very happy. "Happiness" is also not the right concept here. Having kids doesn't necessarily make you "happy." But it's something people almost universally want: https://news.gallup.com/poll/164618/desire-children-norm.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/164618/desire-children-norm.asp.... By age 45, 86% of people have had kids, and only 6% of those wish they had not had kids. By contrast, out of those who didn't have kids, more than half wish they did. Even more remarkably, among all adults age 45+, as many people wish they had five or more kids as wish they had no kids (11%). There is pretty much no other life choice (college, career, etc.) that almost every body does that almost nobody regrets.

aianus 7y ago
> only 6% of those wish they had not had kids It's very socially unacceptable to admit you regret having had your kids. Even to an anonymous stranger conducting a phone poll. I am much more inclined to believe studies that ask for self-reported happiness and compare to life events / states like childlessness without directly asking "do you regret your kids". From what I understand, having children is negatively correlated with happiness in those sorts of studies.
- halter73 7y ago
  > I am much more inclined to believe studies that ask for self-reported happiness and compare to life events / states like childlessness without directly asking "do you regret your kids". Did you reply to the wrong comment? That's why the parent poster led with this quote from IFS: > By the time the 2016 survey rolled around, fathers were 40% more likely than childless men to see themselves as very happy.
  - aianus 7y ago

kaitai 7y ago

The "science" you're referring to shows that parenting makes people less "happy" in any given moment while doing it and more "content" overall, more "satisfied" in older age. Moreover, there are significant country-by-country differences in these stats that seem to be tied to availability of high-quality, low-cost childcare and healthcare. One place to look for some overview of some of these studies is https://contemporaryfamilies.org/brief-parenting-happiness/ https://contemporaryfamilies.org/brief-parenting-happiness/

WalterGR 7y ago
Why did you put science in scare quotes?
- jfengel 7y ago
  I think the intention is a quote rather than a scare quote. It's a little awkward to quote a single word like that. In that circumstance the following words "... you're referring to" serve the same function. But it does highlight the notion of "you were looking for science, here is science".
- Goronmon 7y ago
  Probably referencing the use of the phrase "scientifically proven" and doubting the assertion being made and that there is in fact "science" that backs it up.
throw0101a 7y ago
It's the cost not the kids: > Having children makes people happier—if they can afford it. * https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/02/cost-raising-kids-parents-happiness/583699/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/02/cost-rais...

Ascetik 7y ago

That's the biggest crock I've ever read on HN. Where did this "science" come from? A bunch of self-obsessed journalists I'm sure or maybe /r/childfree? The people who are unhappy with kids are the people who are unhappy, depressed and bitter to begin with, lacking all empathy. You have to be a pretty self-absorbed individual to not love the innocence and charm of children. Every person I know with a family loves their children to death and are very content and happy. Happiness consists in pursuing the ultimate unchanging good and increasing in virtue, nothing passing in this life can give you ultimate everlasting happiness. It is a philosophical, metaphysical and theological question, not a question of children, free-time or money. Children are a good thing, but they're not the ultimate object whereby one becomes happy.

brianmc21 7y ago

I feel as though having children will make a lot of people very happy. But there is also a significant part(>1%) of the population that would be miserable. I believe a lot of the unhappiness is often from someone who was pressured into a choice they didn't critically think about or didn't want but caved in. Even if the pool of people is small the experience could be quite negative. Where as all the people who always wanted them will be happy. I took care of my brother and sisters a lot as a child and it made it very clear that I never wanted children.

moorhosj 7y ago
==I took care of my brother and sisters a lot as a child and it made it very clear that I never wanted children.== Being a parent is not the same as taking care of your siblings. Using the experience of one to justify your decisions in another is short-sighted. How many parents have you ever heard say, "I wish I didn't have kids"?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- vict00ms 7y ago
  I've heard a lot of parents say something along those lines, though usually softened a bit: "I love my kids but if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't have had them."
  - Melchizedek 7y ago
    They love their kids but they would have preferred that their kids never existed? That doesn't sound like love.
    - projektir 7y ago
      Well, this reaction explains why people don't like to say it.
- 7y ago

zaccus 7y ago

There's no way to objectively measure happiness, so no that hasn't been proven. Personally, I've found having a kid to be less stressful, less expensive, and more rewarding than my college/career experience. I'm happier now than I ever was before. Yeah it's hard sometimes, but what isn't?

camelNotation 7y ago

I have less than five kids, but more than one kid. My kids cause me a lot of stress. The burden of knowing I have to deal with them and their energetic, ridiculous antics every day when I get home really drains me. I don't really have time to exercise anymore because from sun-up to sundown I am dealing with them, so I'm slightly overweight and out of shape in a way I was not before I had kids. My diet isn't as diverse as it was before I had kids either because I can't go to the same places I used to or take the time to prepare what I used to prepare. I've stayed in the job I have now for longer than I should just because I worry about keeping a steady salary, paying my bills, and caring for my kids more than I ever worried about those things before. I don't spend a lot of money on self-care or personal enjoyment anymore because I need to save it in case something goes wrong and I need to spend the money on them. Am I less happy? YES. I am less happy than before. But if I was given the choice to go back, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even consider it. Not even for a millisecond. I don't know why and I really don't need to know why, but having kids is just better than being happy. I don't want to be happy, I want to be a good dad. It's true that being a parent makes you less happy, but it also makes happiness irrelevant (for the most part). It probably has something to do with evolution.

StreamBright 7y ago
Well, you have to make time for things you want to do. What we have done raising our kids is that we have one parent going to the gym, the other one is taking care of kids. You can do it if you are committed. Do not give up! Yes, it is rewarding to be a parent at the end of the day when they fall asleep. :)
criddell 7y ago
> But if I was given the choice to go back, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even consider it. There's a speech in the movie Parenthood [1] that expresses a lot of what you just said. With a kid (or kids), the highs are higher, the lows lower. Some want to be on a roller coaster, others are happier on a merry-go-round. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z18vJwmxFFY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z18vJwmxFFY
- camelNotation 7y ago

avip 7y ago

Happiness is overrated.

toasterlovin 7y ago
And Purpose is underrated.

antisthenes 7y ago

Leaving aside the fact that you have not substantiated your claim, it could very well be that having kids in America makes you miserable, because the safety net is gutted or non-existent. There is almost no maternal/paternal leave, health care costs are astronomical, so are child care costs, which are almost necessary, because the normal multi-generational family has been systematically destroyed over the last half-century, both with advertising and economic pressure. Not to mention the lack of compromising skills in both partners, which has been exacerbated by identity politics. So yes, in context, maybe having kids is miserable* *with caveats and not everywhere.

umvi 7y ago

That's like saying it's scientifically proven that people who invest are poorer than people who hoard their cash (and don't invest). True in the short term, false in the long term.

joshuamcginnis 7y ago

Wouldn't that also contradict the biological imperative to pass on our genes? If having children had an overall and prolonged negative impact on your stress levels, it would also impede humans' ability to effectively procreate since stress has a direct impact on life expectancy and fertility. I can understand that in the short-term, that might be the case, but over a longer period (say the last 10k years) it does not appear to be true.

olalonde 7y ago
The stronger "biological imperative" is to have sex; birth control is quite a recent invention. And once you had kids, it doesn't matter that your life expectancy or fertility drops a bit because your genes are already passed on.

tracker1 7y ago

IIRC, married couples with children have some of the highest happiness indexes of the entire world.

asdff 7y ago

Having kids takes a lot of time and money. If you work till 5 you need to pay for childcare, which isn't cheap at all and might even be akin to doubling your rent. Mom is also working so you can't just unload domestic work and childcare to someone else to worry about. If you are entry level chances are you need to get there before the boss and stay there after if you ever want to not be entry level, and work weekends during busy season, so even that 40hr week can go up to 50-60. If you are a woman asking for maternity leave in an entry level job could jeopardize your entire career trajectory. Even in superficially liberal SF, VC firms have been known to discriminate against women entrepreneurs just from the possibility that they might be pregnant one day. People can scarcely keep housing costs below 30% of their net income. People are waiting until they have more money and a job that actually gives them time to raise a family. The real reason why people are putting off having kids is that it's not 1950 anymore.