6 ms·

And what have we learned about private institutions? But that leaves us with homeschooling...

by oyebenny 7y ago

rgrieselhuber 7y ago
Homeschooling has come a long way. It’s a sacrifice, for sure, but far easier now than it was even 20 years ago.
- cheesymuffin 7y ago
  People pick the strangest ways of resisting the system.
  - rgrieselhuber 7y ago
    Yeah, it is really weird to want to educate your own children.
    - guitarbill 7y ago
      Might as well deprive them of normal social interactions and different opinions while you're at it. Personally, I'm glad my country does not allow such nonsense and hubris. Of course, it's a straw man, you can care about your children's education in other ways, and outside of school, too.
      - rgrieselhuber 7y ago
        It varies depending on circumstances, of course, but the vast majority of homeschooled kids I've met are very well socialized, capable of reasoned debate, and quite well-rounded in their outlook on life. By contrast, in American public schools at least, I'm seeing a serious trend toward unhealthy social interactions, cyber bullying, teachers who only have time for testing, and more. If your country doesn't allow it, you may not have had the chance to observe the difference but it's pretty significant.
        guitarbill 7y ago
        > I'm seeing a serious trend toward unhealthy social interactions, cyber bullying Admittedly the "cyber" part is relatively new, but that's called being a teenager. I'd rather my kids have this learning experience for the future. Me having to help them through it is simply part of being a parent. Especially if it's difficult, there's a learning experience in that. > If your country doesn't allow it, you may not have had the chance to observe the difference I've travelled and lived in other countries... > but the vast majority of homeschooled kids I've met are very well socialized, capable of reasoned debate, and quite well-rounded in their outlook on life ...and I'm pretty sure this is selection bias based on your social circles, and not a universal truth. Finally, it's bizarre to me that in a first-world country, smart and rich parents have decided the education system is so broken, it needs to be worked around instead of engaging with it and driving change. Seems to be a very selfish attitude: at least my kids are doing fine, and screw other kids who's parents may not have the time or resources to care and improve things.
        rgrieselhuber 7y ago
        That sure is a lot of assumptions and accusations.
        ilikehurdles 7y ago
        Most of the comment was spent explaining the counter-arguments to your own accusations. Homeschool helicopter-parents have thought that public schools are a dumpster fire for as long as they have existed. Parents absolutely do not have the skills alone to give their children a well-rounded education, period. That some people can even think this could ever be different is a testament to the low quality of education and media in the US.
        rgrieselhuber 7y ago
        Show me an accusation I made? I don't see any. > Parents absolutely do not have the skills alone to give their children a well-rounded education, period. That some people can even think this could ever be different is a testament to the low quality of education and media in the US. That's why you don't do it alone. You get involved with co-ops, sign them up for classes, use established curricula, and more.
      - iamnothere 7y ago
        Many homeschooling programs have a mandatory requirement that includes time spent with other kids in a sort of classroom setting; it's just that this doesn't happen every day, unlike a regular school. It's not "hubris" to homeschool when your school system is a dumpster fire. We've spent decades trying to improve the schools in some areas, only to see continued decline and often blatant political sabotage that seems to be endemic to the system. What can you do in that case if (a) you care about your child's future and (b) you can't move for whatever reason?
        guitarbill 7y ago
        > when your school system is a dumpster fire let's assume this represents a person's view. then surely, most of society is fucked, and the logical solution is to move to a different country that doesn't have these issues? or do you also see it as a zero-sum game? as in, if society is dumber and my kids are smarter, that's a win? that doesn't ring true in my experience, given that humans are social creatures. or are you simply banking on that they'll be enough people out there and enough separation via social circles to weed out the suckers who had to run this dumpster fire gauntlet?
        iamnothere 7y ago
        > the logical solution is to move to a different country that doesn't have these issues You ignored the second part of my statement: many people don't have the means or skills needed to move to another city, let alone another country, or they are bound to the local area due to caring for an aging parent, etc. If you are trapped in a difficult situation but your kids have a chance to break free, wouldn't you try to help them take advantage of that opportunity? I think most people would put their own children first, frankly. Not that sending them to a terrible school would help anyone!
        Noos 7y ago
        Homeschooling has very few actual requirements, and they vary from state by state. Here is a map of them: https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/homeschool https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/homeschool The majority of the states don't even require the parents to have a high school diploma. Many don't require any assessments, or impose any penalties if they are failed. Eleven states don't even require the parent to notify the state they are homeschooling the child. The idea of your mandatory requirements is not correct. One of the big dangers of homeschooling is simple fatigue; if the mother gets weary and skips lessons she will face little to no sanction for it.
    - Mizza 7y ago
      I see the appeal of that, but I think most of us think that the school experience is necessary for proper socialization of the kids. Personally I think that most schools are akin to prisons in many ways, but they were also the place where I forged some lifelong friendships.
      - rgrieselhuber 7y ago
        I agree on the prison characterization (in general, not in all cases). The tradeoff is that you have to be more proactive at socialization but there are plenty of opportunities to socialize through extra-curricular activities, co-ops, meeting up with other families during the day, etc. Nothing's perfect. That's the whole point of having options and the freedom to choose what works for you.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - zanny 7y ago
        The problem is that the public school environment is not reflective of real social engagement at all. You aren't forced to spend years with the same people without recourse like you are as a child, your time is not controlled as astutely, and your options to disengage with people you don't like is nonexistent. Its why school bullies often end up totally dysfunctional in adulthood and end up drug addicts, because they can't compel anyone else to be around and stay around them while they are abusive. Some "luck out" and can find someone emotionally damaged enough to exploit, but then they just abuse an already damaged person in near isolation - there isn't a "cool wife beaters club" for them to hang around at the mall with. You largely get to choose your peers in adulthood. Sometimes that means you have to live somewhere else, find a different job, maybe even move to a different city or state to escape an incompatible culture. But having that choice alone radically changes the dynamic enough that all the "tough skin" and social paranoia you have to develop to survive most public education systems is inapplicable and often harmful to have in adulthood. Women develop a thick skin just to endure years of spousal abuse. Men don't express themselves and develop deep psychological complexes and overwork themselves to the point of self harm. The public school environment is a far cry from an optimal environment to develop social skills in. I'd go as far as to argue it contributes somewhat to why the top post on HN right now is an 800 comment thread about pandemic loneliness. You don't get to deviate in public school much - either the authorities will punish it or your peers will ostracize it. And kids learn to cope the same way abuse victims do by suppressing the bad feelings and developing resultant mental illnesses and lifelong emotional complications.
- Noos 7y ago
  You're complaining about an authoritarian public school system, but are replacing it with an even more authoritarian solution. Homeschooling keeps the child under the parent's eye 24-7 and completely captive to their worldview and idea. If that worldview and idea is for them to be "schooled" in helping their dad run his landscaping business, or being prepared to be married off, well, good luck. Public school is important precisely because it is public. It gets the kid out to realize society exists and to deal with it as it exists. Homeschooling to me is bad because the child is dominated by their parent too much and it's not something that can really be fixed except with great effort by the child later in life.
  - esaym 7y ago
    >Public school is important precisely because it is public. It gets the kid out to realize society exists and to deal with it as it exists. Perhaps your public school was better than mine, but what I was conditioned into socially while in high school did not line up at all with "the real world". At the age of 20, after many months of deep thought about my life's direction, I literally realized I needed to throw out everything I learned/was indoctrinated into by the public school and start over. The sad thing is, thanks to facebook, I've looked up many of my old high school buddies. They are still the same. They are 30+ years old now and act like they are still 15. Still playing the same video games, listening to the same kind of music, still showing the same attitudes, still not having any responsibility. Which is the point I realized when I was 20, why send your teenager into an institution that will condition him/her into acting like a typical teenager? A person with a "teenager" mentality will never be a CEO, will never own a company, will never be successful and will never make wise choices. And why would they? They already know everything and can't be taught a dang thing. Its clearly a two way street. I've seen some terrible products of homeschooling and I've seen some really good ones. But that brings the question of if the "terrible products" of homeschooling had went to public school, would they have been better off? I've going to assume probably not.
    - Noos 7y ago
      You don't know the opposite though. The kids that fail are barely educated; they may have fourth grade level math. They end up indoctrinated totally by their parents worldview or unable to function with others. They have no real way to connect with others because there isn't even the shared topic of "public school sucks." CEO isn't an option for them; hell a life apart from their parents barely is. I think people romanticize it way too much, and there is the HLSDA which really pushes a lot of narratives about it. The blog Homeschoolers Anonymous is inactive, but a good reference on some of the issues.
eximius 7y ago
I don't understand. Are we supposed to know that private schools are also bad? Private schools are a form of socioeconomic class segregation and there are problems with them, but I would definitely believe that private schools are, by most metrics, better schools.

And what have we learned about private institutions? But that leaves us with homeschooling...

rgrieselhuber 7y ago

Homeschooling has come a long way. It’s a sacrifice, for sure, but far easier now than it was even 20 years ago.

cheesymuffin 7y ago
People pick the strangest ways of resisting the system.
- rgrieselhuber 7y ago
  Yeah, it is really weird to want to educate your own children.
  - guitarbill 7y ago
    Might as well deprive them of normal social interactions and different opinions while you're at it. Personally, I'm glad my country does not allow such nonsense and hubris. Of course, it's a straw man, you can care about your children's education in other ways, and outside of school, too.
    - rgrieselhuber 7y ago
      It varies depending on circumstances, of course, but the vast majority of homeschooled kids I've met are very well socialized, capable of reasoned debate, and quite well-rounded in their outlook on life. By contrast, in American public schools at least, I'm seeing a serious trend toward unhealthy social interactions, cyber bullying, teachers who only have time for testing, and more. If your country doesn't allow it, you may not have had the chance to observe the difference but it's pretty significant.
      - guitarbill 7y ago
        > I'm seeing a serious trend toward unhealthy social interactions, cyber bullying Admittedly the "cyber" part is relatively new, but that's called being a teenager. I'd rather my kids have this learning experience for the future. Me having to help them through it is simply part of being a parent. Especially if it's difficult, there's a learning experience in that. > If your country doesn't allow it, you may not have had the chance to observe the difference I've travelled and lived in other countries... > but the vast majority of homeschooled kids I've met are very well socialized, capable of reasoned debate, and quite well-rounded in their outlook on life ...and I'm pretty sure this is selection bias based on your social circles, and not a universal truth. Finally, it's bizarre to me that in a first-world country, smart and rich parents have decided the education system is so broken, it needs to be worked around instead of engaging with it and driving change. Seems to be a very selfish attitude: at least my kids are doing fine, and screw other kids who's parents may not have the time or resources to care and improve things.
        rgrieselhuber 7y ago
        That sure is a lot of assumptions and accusations.
        ilikehurdles 7y ago
        Most of the comment was spent explaining the counter-arguments to your own accusations. Homeschool helicopter-parents have thought that public schools are a dumpster fire for as long as they have existed. Parents absolutely do not have the skills alone to give their children a well-rounded education, period. That some people can even think this could ever be different is a testament to the low quality of education and media in the US.
        rgrieselhuber 7y ago
        Show me an accusation I made? I don't see any. > Parents absolutely do not have the skills alone to give their children a well-rounded education, period. That some people can even think this could ever be different is a testament to the low quality of education and media in the US. That's why you don't do it alone. You get involved with co-ops, sign them up for classes, use established curricula, and more.
    - iamnothere 7y ago
      Many homeschooling programs have a mandatory requirement that includes time spent with other kids in a sort of classroom setting; it's just that this doesn't happen every day, unlike a regular school. It's not "hubris" to homeschool when your school system is a dumpster fire. We've spent decades trying to improve the schools in some areas, only to see continued decline and often blatant political sabotage that seems to be endemic to the system. What can you do in that case if (a) you care about your child's future and (b) you can't move for whatever reason?
      - guitarbill 7y ago
        > when your school system is a dumpster fire let's assume this represents a person's view. then surely, most of society is fucked, and the logical solution is to move to a different country that doesn't have these issues? or do you also see it as a zero-sum game? as in, if society is dumber and my kids are smarter, that's a win? that doesn't ring true in my experience, given that humans are social creatures. or are you simply banking on that they'll be enough people out there and enough separation via social circles to weed out the suckers who had to run this dumpster fire gauntlet?
        iamnothere 7y ago
        > the logical solution is to move to a different country that doesn't have these issues You ignored the second part of my statement: many people don't have the means or skills needed to move to another city, let alone another country, or they are bound to the local area due to caring for an aging parent, etc. If you are trapped in a difficult situation but your kids have a chance to break free, wouldn't you try to help them take advantage of that opportunity? I think most people would put their own children first, frankly. Not that sending them to a terrible school would help anyone!
      - Noos 7y ago
        Homeschooling has very few actual requirements, and they vary from state by state. Here is a map of them: https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/homeschool https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/homeschool The majority of the states don't even require the parents to have a high school diploma. Many don't require any assessments, or impose any penalties if they are failed. Eleven states don't even require the parent to notify the state they are homeschooling the child. The idea of your mandatory requirements is not correct. One of the big dangers of homeschooling is simple fatigue; if the mother gets weary and skips lessons she will face little to no sanction for it.
  - Mizza 7y ago
    I see the appeal of that, but I think most of us think that the school experience is necessary for proper socialization of the kids. Personally I think that most schools are akin to prisons in many ways, but they were also the place where I forged some lifelong friendships.
    - rgrieselhuber 7y ago
      I agree on the prison characterization (in general, not in all cases). The tradeoff is that you have to be more proactive at socialization but there are plenty of opportunities to socialize through extra-curricular activities, co-ops, meeting up with other families during the day, etc. Nothing's perfect. That's the whole point of having options and the freedom to choose what works for you.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - zanny 7y ago
      The problem is that the public school environment is not reflective of real social engagement at all. You aren't forced to spend years with the same people without recourse like you are as a child, your time is not controlled as astutely, and your options to disengage with people you don't like is nonexistent. Its why school bullies often end up totally dysfunctional in adulthood and end up drug addicts, because they can't compel anyone else to be around and stay around them while they are abusive. Some "luck out" and can find someone emotionally damaged enough to exploit, but then they just abuse an already damaged person in near isolation - there isn't a "cool wife beaters club" for them to hang around at the mall with. You largely get to choose your peers in adulthood. Sometimes that means you have to live somewhere else, find a different job, maybe even move to a different city or state to escape an incompatible culture. But having that choice alone radically changes the dynamic enough that all the "tough skin" and social paranoia you have to develop to survive most public education systems is inapplicable and often harmful to have in adulthood. Women develop a thick skin just to endure years of spousal abuse. Men don't express themselves and develop deep psychological complexes and overwork themselves to the point of self harm. The public school environment is a far cry from an optimal environment to develop social skills in. I'd go as far as to argue it contributes somewhat to why the top post on HN right now is an 800 comment thread about pandemic loneliness. You don't get to deviate in public school much - either the authorities will punish it or your peers will ostracize it. And kids learn to cope the same way abuse victims do by suppressing the bad feelings and developing resultant mental illnesses and lifelong emotional complications.
Noos 7y ago
You're complaining about an authoritarian public school system, but are replacing it with an even more authoritarian solution. Homeschooling keeps the child under the parent's eye 24-7 and completely captive to their worldview and idea. If that worldview and idea is for them to be "schooled" in helping their dad run his landscaping business, or being prepared to be married off, well, good luck. Public school is important precisely because it is public. It gets the kid out to realize society exists and to deal with it as it exists. Homeschooling to me is bad because the child is dominated by their parent too much and it's not something that can really be fixed except with great effort by the child later in life.
- esaym 7y ago
  >Public school is important precisely because it is public. It gets the kid out to realize society exists and to deal with it as it exists. Perhaps your public school was better than mine, but what I was conditioned into socially while in high school did not line up at all with "the real world". At the age of 20, after many months of deep thought about my life's direction, I literally realized I needed to throw out everything I learned/was indoctrinated into by the public school and start over. The sad thing is, thanks to facebook, I've looked up many of my old high school buddies. They are still the same. They are 30+ years old now and act like they are still 15. Still playing the same video games, listening to the same kind of music, still showing the same attitudes, still not having any responsibility. Which is the point I realized when I was 20, why send your teenager into an institution that will condition him/her into acting like a typical teenager? A person with a "teenager" mentality will never be a CEO, will never own a company, will never be successful and will never make wise choices. And why would they? They already know everything and can't be taught a dang thing. Its clearly a two way street. I've seen some terrible products of homeschooling and I've seen some really good ones. But that brings the question of if the "terrible products" of homeschooling had went to public school, would they have been better off? I've going to assume probably not.
  - Noos 7y ago
    You don't know the opposite though. The kids that fail are barely educated; they may have fourth grade level math. They end up indoctrinated totally by their parents worldview or unable to function with others. They have no real way to connect with others because there isn't even the shared topic of "public school sucks." CEO isn't an option for them; hell a life apart from their parents barely is. I think people romanticize it way too much, and there is the HLSDA which really pushes a lot of narratives about it. The blog Homeschoolers Anonymous is inactive, but a good reference on some of the issues.

eximius 7y ago

I don't understand. Are we supposed to know that private schools are also bad? Private schools are a form of socioeconomic class segregation and there are problems with them, but I would definitely believe that private schools are, by most metrics, better schools.