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You’re cherry picking various stereotypes from different time periods and not including the bad stereotypes men had in the 20th century as well: the oafish dad,

You’re cherry picking various stereotypes from different time periods and not including the bad stereotypes men had in the 20th century as well: the oafish dad, the wannabe player, the nerd, dumb jock... None of this says much about people’s place in the world, more that 20th century sitcoms went for easy laughs. The reality is that being a mother has always been seen as a powerful important role (because it is). It wasn’t until the late 20th century that diminished often at the hands of feminists. You seem focused on the idea that telling a man to be like a woman is an insult but for as long as I’ve been alive people have been telling men to get in touch with their sensitive side, do more duties around the house... I don’t think you’re accurately describing the big picture, just one slice of one piece of mainstream, late 20th century culture.

watwut 7y ago
The 20th century culture is what is relevant to changes by the end of 20th century. Thomas Aquinas opinions or Ancient Rome opinions are much less relevant to the outcome. Are you saying that a men or boy would take "you are like a girl" as a compliment? Or that femininity was something men would inspire to? Because afaik, while the girl who "is like a boy" is breaking rules, the expression is less humiliating then other way round. A boy in pink is more mockable then girl in blue. This alone tilts a lot peoples decisions on what they want for themselves and which wishes they show in public. Mothers were not powerful except limited power over children, not in the usual "can get her way effortlessly in important things" way. It was not matriarchy for long time. I am not saying they were slaves or something. There were places where female social status depended greatly on number of children. In that sense, being mother was advantageous. But calling it powerful position is a stretch. But for that matter, it is not like fatherhood was some kind of super powerful position, through it added social status where family was valued too. Father had great power over children, but calling it powerful position is a stretch too. Yes, there are changes and increasingly more toward pushing men more toward that household works and emotional contributions. That is framed more as duty and work. Less as something men organizations push for as thing-men-should-want. Men do play more with small children or wash dishes etc. But the mass interest for changes in the past was the other way round. There is difference between "I want better career for me" and "you should wash dishes more often".
- malvosenior 7y ago
  First of all I don’t think telling someone that they should be more like the opposite gender has ever been well received. I dispute your point that telling a woman to be more like a man is less of an insult than the opposite statement. I also think you’re downplaying the importance of mothers not just in the family unit but in society as a whole. Mother’s Day has always been a bigger deal than Father’s Day. Aside from optics the personal influence that a mother has traditionally had over children of both genders is second to none. That’s very powerful. Having a career isn’t very powerful for most people. You have multiple layers of people above you (your “superiors”) that have a very large amount of control over your life in exchange for a potentially livable wage. You can be fired at any time, for almost any reason. I don’t think divorce happens as easily.

watwut 7y ago

The 20th century culture is what is relevant to changes by the end of 20th century. Thomas Aquinas opinions or Ancient Rome opinions are much less relevant to the outcome. Are you saying that a men or boy would take "you are like a girl" as a compliment? Or that femininity was something men would inspire to? Because afaik, while the girl who "is like a boy" is breaking rules, the expression is less humiliating then other way round. A boy in pink is more mockable then girl in blue. This alone tilts a lot peoples decisions on what they want for themselves and which wishes they show in public. Mothers were not powerful except limited power over children, not in the usual "can get her way effortlessly in important things" way. It was not matriarchy for long time. I am not saying they were slaves or something. There were places where female social status depended greatly on number of children. In that sense, being mother was advantageous. But calling it powerful position is a stretch. But for that matter, it is not like fatherhood was some kind of super powerful position, through it added social status where family was valued too. Father had great power over children, but calling it powerful position is a stretch too. Yes, there are changes and increasingly more toward pushing men more toward that household works and emotional contributions. That is framed more as duty and work. Less as something men organizations push for as thing-men-should-want. Men do play more with small children or wash dishes etc. But the mass interest for changes in the past was the other way round. There is difference between "I want better career for me" and "you should wash dishes more often".

malvosenior 7y ago
First of all I don’t think telling someone that they should be more like the opposite gender has ever been well received. I dispute your point that telling a woman to be more like a man is less of an insult than the opposite statement. I also think you’re downplaying the importance of mothers not just in the family unit but in society as a whole. Mother’s Day has always been a bigger deal than Father’s Day. Aside from optics the personal influence that a mother has traditionally had over children of both genders is second to none. That’s very powerful. Having a career isn’t very powerful for most people. You have multiple layers of people above you (your “superiors”) that have a very large amount of control over your life in exchange for a potentially livable wage. You can be fired at any time, for almost any reason. I don’t think divorce happens as easily.