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Would you say सफ़ेद, गरम, अख़बार, वक़्त, मुज्ररिम, इलज़ाम, ख़त, etc are not Hindi words? Would you rather say श्वेत, ऊष्म, समाचारपत्र, मुजरिम, आरोप, पत्र? Most peopl

Would you say सफ़ेद, गरम, अख़बार, वक़्त, मुज्ररिम, इलज़ाम, ख़त, etc are not Hindi words? Would you rather say श्वेत, ऊष्म, समाचारपत्र, मुजरिम, आरोप, पत्र? Most people use them interchangeably.

kranner 7y ago
Most people just use words in the former category. A lot of people wouldn't even recognise some of the words in the latter category if they heard them being spoken, as opposed to seeing them in writing.
yumraj 7y ago
Yes, they are Urdu words, not Hindi. Yes, they are more commonly used than the Hindi words you mentioned. For what it's worth, मुजरिम is also Urdu. Not sure about आरोप, but I have a feeling that it's also Urdu, though I could be wrong. Edit: read any Hindi newspaper these days, at least the online edition, and in fact you will find a lot of common Hindi/Urdu words being replaced with English words written in Devnagri.
- random314 7y ago
  What you have been basically arguing is that Urdu is India's most widely spoken language and Hindi is a niche minority language, definitely outside the top 20.
  - yumraj 7y ago
    It's not clear to me how that conclusion can be drawn simply my looking at a very small set of words, while completely ignoring all else that makes a language. Moreover, there are hundreds of dialects of Hindi spoken in India, each with its own nuances and varying degrees of Urdu words. In addition, there is no denying that Urdu and Hindi have some shared lineage. Again will refer to the Wikipedia [0] for better coverage of this topic [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi–Urdu_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi–Urdu_controversy
    - kranner 7y ago
      > while completely ignoring all else that makes a language. What else makes a language? Syntax? Hindi and Urdu have almost identical syntax. There are more syntactical differences between Hindi and Punjabi than there are between Hindi and Urdu.
    - random314 7y ago
      The Wikipedia article does not support your argument. It merely relates the history of the bifurcation primary driven by differences in script and religion. I am well versed with the history of Hindi and Urdu going beyond this Wikipedia article. If you want to make your argument rigorous please give an estimate of pure textbook Hindi speakers (people who use avashya instead of zaroor, hriday instead of Dil outside academics and newspapers) and "hindustani" speakers. My conservative estimate is less than 10M for "pure Hindi" and greater than 300M for regular hindi/Urdu. This is because virtually every one from North India and Pakistan speaks the so called Hindi/Urdu mixed language. I have also met bhojpuri, awadhi, marwari speakers but I am yet to meet the mythical pure Hindi speaker and I am a really old guy.
    - random314 7y ago
      Again, Hindi and Urdu are not 2 languages with shared lineage. They were one and the same language until about 1850 until Britains choice of using the Arabic script for administering India angered the Hindus. Yes there were cultural/academic differences and many different dialects of Hindi. Kabir sounds very different from Ghalib. But for the man on the street there was no difference. At most, you can argue that Urdu is the most popular dialect of Hindi. It wouldn't be correct, but less wrong. Hyderabadi and Tamil Muslims speak a dialect of Hindi that they call urdu that would make Ghalib spin in his grave. Differences within Urdu/Hindi are far more tremendous than the Hindi Urdu split. Calling them separate languages is crazy. It's a cultural standard. Muslims call their language Urdu. Hindus call it Hindi. The language is the same, whatever you call it.
- _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
  Is चाभी a Hindi word?
  - kranner 7y ago
    Hindi and Urdu both. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AD%E0%A5%80 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AD%E...
    - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
      Sorry, it was supposed to be rhetorical. It's a borrowing from Portuguese, so by the standards yumraj seems to be employing it shouldn't count as Hindi. Likewise, निश्चित certainly isn't Hindi in this narrow sense. It's a direct borrowing from Sanskrit, not a native, inherited word of the language. And Hindi (हिन्दी) itself isn't a Hindi word; it's Persian (likewise Hindu).
      - kranner 7y ago
        Sorry, I didn't realise it was rhetorical. If we discount direct borrowings from Sanskrit, I guess there would be very little left. Something like Pali, essentially.
        _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
        No, the core of Hindi is inherited, ultimately from something like 'vulgar Sanskrit', not borrowed from Sanskrit. So like the core of Italian vocabulary is inherited from (vulgar) Latin, though there are of course also direct borrowings (at later dates) from Latin into Italian. So 'fire' in Hindi(/Urdu) is āg (आग), but 'fire' in Sanskrit is agni (अग्नि), which has also been borrowed into Hindi (as the name of the god of fire; or fire in ritual contexts). Now, āg descends from agni, but represents the natural linguistic development into Hindi.
        kranner 7y ago

kranner 7y ago

Most people just use words in the former category. A lot of people wouldn't even recognise some of the words in the latter category if they heard them being spoken, as opposed to seeing them in writing.

yumraj 7y ago

Yes, they are Urdu words, not Hindi. Yes, they are more commonly used than the Hindi words you mentioned. For what it's worth, मुजरिम is also Urdu. Not sure about आरोप, but I have a feeling that it's also Urdu, though I could be wrong. Edit: read any Hindi newspaper these days, at least the online edition, and in fact you will find a lot of common Hindi/Urdu words being replaced with English words written in Devnagri.

random314 7y ago
What you have been basically arguing is that Urdu is India's most widely spoken language and Hindi is a niche minority language, definitely outside the top 20.
- yumraj 7y ago
  It's not clear to me how that conclusion can be drawn simply my looking at a very small set of words, while completely ignoring all else that makes a language. Moreover, there are hundreds of dialects of Hindi spoken in India, each with its own nuances and varying degrees of Urdu words. In addition, there is no denying that Urdu and Hindi have some shared lineage. Again will refer to the Wikipedia [0] for better coverage of this topic [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi–Urdu_controversy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi–Urdu_controversy
  - kranner 7y ago
    > while completely ignoring all else that makes a language. What else makes a language? Syntax? Hindi and Urdu have almost identical syntax. There are more syntactical differences between Hindi and Punjabi than there are between Hindi and Urdu.
  - random314 7y ago
    The Wikipedia article does not support your argument. It merely relates the history of the bifurcation primary driven by differences in script and religion. I am well versed with the history of Hindi and Urdu going beyond this Wikipedia article. If you want to make your argument rigorous please give an estimate of pure textbook Hindi speakers (people who use avashya instead of zaroor, hriday instead of Dil outside academics and newspapers) and "hindustani" speakers. My conservative estimate is less than 10M for "pure Hindi" and greater than 300M for regular hindi/Urdu. This is because virtually every one from North India and Pakistan speaks the so called Hindi/Urdu mixed language. I have also met bhojpuri, awadhi, marwari speakers but I am yet to meet the mythical pure Hindi speaker and I am a really old guy.
  - random314 7y ago
    Again, Hindi and Urdu are not 2 languages with shared lineage. They were one and the same language until about 1850 until Britains choice of using the Arabic script for administering India angered the Hindus. Yes there were cultural/academic differences and many different dialects of Hindi. Kabir sounds very different from Ghalib. But for the man on the street there was no difference. At most, you can argue that Urdu is the most popular dialect of Hindi. It wouldn't be correct, but less wrong. Hyderabadi and Tamil Muslims speak a dialect of Hindi that they call urdu that would make Ghalib spin in his grave. Differences within Urdu/Hindi are far more tremendous than the Hindi Urdu split. Calling them separate languages is crazy. It's a cultural standard. Muslims call their language Urdu. Hindus call it Hindi. The language is the same, whatever you call it.
_emacsomancer_ 7y ago
Is चाभी a Hindi word?
- kranner 7y ago
  Hindi and Urdu both. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AD%E0%A5%80 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AD%E...
  - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
    Sorry, it was supposed to be rhetorical. It's a borrowing from Portuguese, so by the standards yumraj seems to be employing it shouldn't count as Hindi. Likewise, निश्चित certainly isn't Hindi in this narrow sense. It's a direct borrowing from Sanskrit, not a native, inherited word of the language. And Hindi (हिन्दी) itself isn't a Hindi word; it's Persian (likewise Hindu).
    - kranner 7y ago
      Sorry, I didn't realise it was rhetorical. If we discount direct borrowings from Sanskrit, I guess there would be very little left. Something like Pali, essentially.
      - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
        No, the core of Hindi is inherited, ultimately from something like 'vulgar Sanskrit', not borrowed from Sanskrit. So like the core of Italian vocabulary is inherited from (vulgar) Latin, though there are of course also direct borrowings (at later dates) from Latin into Italian. So 'fire' in Hindi(/Urdu) is āg (आग), but 'fire' in Sanskrit is agni (अग्नि), which has also been borrowed into Hindi (as the name of the god of fire; or fire in ritual contexts). Now, āg descends from agni, but represents the natural linguistic development into Hindi.
        kranner 7y ago