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Learning how to install Python and Pip should be part of the learning process for newbies.

bshipp 7y ago
Installing the version you need when you want to run a script is arguably easier for newbies than all the error messages arising from an out of date implementation originally included with an OS. it's not like installing python is any more complicated than any other piece of software that needs to be installed. Windows users have had no choice but to do that for decades.
- SeanLuke 7y ago
  > Windows users have had no choice but to do that for decades. You're saying this like it's a good thing.
  - bshipp 7y ago
    It's not a good thing or a bad thing. I'm saying it's not a thing at all. If someone decides they want to run a custom ruby or python script the least difficult aspect of that decision is installing the interpreter. For example, I was dealing with someone yesterday who decided they wanted to learn how to write apps for Android. Without even seeing a single line of code (or even knowing which language they would have to learn!!) they had already successfully installed Android Studio and Jetbrains IDEA. Without coming across as some gatekeeping greybeard, I think anyone who has even a glancing interest in programming would agree if you can't follow a one-line/click installation instruction you may want to find a simpler tool for the task than writing your own code from scratch.
    - Godel_unicode 7y ago
      Lots of people on just this thread, who have far more than a glancing interest, have expressed their disagreement with this exact idea. The hardest part for lots of people in learning to program is getting over the idea that programming is for Special People, or possibly Wizards, who know lots of incantations which are beyond mere mortals. Please stop trying to convince them they're right. Source: I've taught lots of marketing people, admins, call center techs, etc to program in PowerShell or system Python.
      - arvinsim 7y ago
        On the contrary, not teaching people how to install the interpreter just perpetuates the idea that it is beyond the ken of mere mortals. And that only "Wizards" should do it. Installing the interpreter is nothing special. It should be taught as such.
Bjartr 7y ago
Learning how to install and configure development environments is an important skill in general, but I'm not convinced having those skills as a prerequisite for exploring programming as a newbie is at all valuable.
- benatkin 7y ago
  It is valuable if they start out with python 3 instead of python 2.
  - Bjartr 7y ago
    I'd say that depends on what kind of newbie we're talking about.
- drak0n1c 7y ago
  On macOS the best config-free entry to programming is Swift and Swift Playgrounds. Everything else can have config and shell hell for further more advanced learning purposes.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    You still have to download Xcode, of course.
SeanLuke 7y ago
I'm sure that my kids will certainly love to hear that they have to learn Unix in order to learn a build system in order to try out Python. It's all part of the "learning process for newbies."
- saghm 7y ago
  > learn Unix in order to learn a build system in order to try out Python I definitely understand that the installation process for things like python can be confusing to non-programmers, but I think this is a bit disingenuous. You don't have to learn a build system to install it; python was the first programming language I ever learned, and I used it years before I ever even had any idea what a build system is.
- photojosh 7y ago
  Good grief. What's wrong with going to www.python.org/downloads/ and clicking the big button at the top that says "Download the latest version for Mac OS X"? If you can't even download an installer and run it, then yeah, maybe not quite ready for programming either. Please forgive my snark, but this would be exactly my thought process as a reasonably competent computer user who wanted to learn Python.
  - jasonkester 7y ago
    He’s right though. When I was six years old, learning to program involved turning on the computer and typing 10 print “hello” run That’s what I want for my kids. And there’s nothing even remotely like it in today’s world.
    - em500 7y ago
      Open Terminal $ echo "hello" seems pretty much the same to me. Even on Windows you can open the browser console and do > console.log("hello") Just for teaching basic prints, variables, loops and functions, terminal bash on macOS/Linux or Javascript console work just as well as Commodore 64 BASIC. The problem is not that the environment is not available or setup is too difficult. The problem is that there's now way more competition from other shinies readily available (web, apps, games, videos). Even if you boot your home PC straight into a terminal, as soon as the kids find the way to a web browser it's game over. Even on 1980s home micros, if the kids got access to (pirated) games, practically none would volunterily keep on programming BASIC.

Installing the version you need when you want to run a script is arguably easier for newbies than all the error messages arising from an out of date implementation originally included with an OS. it's not like installing python is any more complicated than any other piece of software that needs to be installed. Windows users have had no choice but to do that for decades.

SeanLuke 7y ago
> Windows users have had no choice but to do that for decades. You're saying this like it's a good thing.
- bshipp 7y ago
  It's not a good thing or a bad thing. I'm saying it's not a thing at all. If someone decides they want to run a custom ruby or python script the least difficult aspect of that decision is installing the interpreter. For example, I was dealing with someone yesterday who decided they wanted to learn how to write apps for Android. Without even seeing a single line of code (or even knowing which language they would have to learn!!) they had already successfully installed Android Studio and Jetbrains IDEA. Without coming across as some gatekeeping greybeard, I think anyone who has even a glancing interest in programming would agree if you can't follow a one-line/click installation instruction you may want to find a simpler tool for the task than writing your own code from scratch.
  - Godel_unicode 7y ago
    Lots of people on just this thread, who have far more than a glancing interest, have expressed their disagreement with this exact idea. The hardest part for lots of people in learning to program is getting over the idea that programming is for Special People, or possibly Wizards, who know lots of incantations which are beyond mere mortals. Please stop trying to convince them they're right. Source: I've taught lots of marketing people, admins, call center techs, etc to program in PowerShell or system Python.
    - arvinsim 7y ago
      On the contrary, not teaching people how to install the interpreter just perpetuates the idea that it is beyond the ken of mere mortals. And that only "Wizards" should do it. Installing the interpreter is nothing special. It should be taught as such.

Bjartr 7y ago

Learning how to install and configure development environments is an important skill in general, but I'm not convinced having those skills as a prerequisite for exploring programming as a newbie is at all valuable.

benatkin 7y ago
It is valuable if they start out with python 3 instead of python 2.
- Bjartr 7y ago
  I'd say that depends on what kind of newbie we're talking about.
drak0n1c 7y ago
On macOS the best config-free entry to programming is Swift and Swift Playgrounds. Everything else can have config and shell hell for further more advanced learning purposes.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  You still have to download Xcode, of course.

SeanLuke 7y ago

I'm sure that my kids will certainly love to hear that they have to learn Unix in order to learn a build system in order to try out Python. It's all part of the "learning process for newbies."

saghm 7y ago
> learn Unix in order to learn a build system in order to try out Python I definitely understand that the installation process for things like python can be confusing to non-programmers, but I think this is a bit disingenuous. You don't have to learn a build system to install it; python was the first programming language I ever learned, and I used it years before I ever even had any idea what a build system is.
photojosh 7y ago
Good grief. What's wrong with going to www.python.org/downloads/ and clicking the big button at the top that says "Download the latest version for Mac OS X"? If you can't even download an installer and run it, then yeah, maybe not quite ready for programming either. Please forgive my snark, but this would be exactly my thought process as a reasonably competent computer user who wanted to learn Python.
- jasonkester 7y ago
  He’s right though. When I was six years old, learning to program involved turning on the computer and typing 10 print “hello” run That’s what I want for my kids. And there’s nothing even remotely like it in today’s world.
  - em500 7y ago
    Open Terminal $ echo "hello" seems pretty much the same to me. Even on Windows you can open the browser console and do > console.log("hello") Just for teaching basic prints, variables, loops and functions, terminal bash on macOS/Linux or Javascript console work just as well as Commodore 64 BASIC. The problem is not that the environment is not available or setup is too difficult. The problem is that there's now way more competition from other shinies readily available (web, apps, games, videos). Even if you boot your home PC straight into a terminal, as soon as the kids find the way to a web browser it's game over. Even on 1980s home micros, if the kids got access to (pirated) games, practically none would volunterily keep on programming BASIC.