4 ms·
Not euthanasia, but how would you call it ? I mean sure, was she given a lethal injection in a clinic ? Well, no. Is this not euthanasia ? Why the hell not ?
by candiodari 7y ago
Not euthanasia, but how would you call it ?
I mean sure, was she given a lethal injection in a clinic ? Well, no. Is this not euthanasia ? Why the hell not ?
1) the girl is in fact dead
2) because she wanted to die (after being locked up in youth services for years, including months in an isolation cell)
3) the "original event" is that she was ("probably") raped at school. Repeatedly. She has never divulged what actually happened.
4) according to her own words, she has been locked up in ~30 different institutions in something like 6 years. In at least a few cases against her will and against the will of her parents. [1]
In one case, this was done because she could not immediately be treated by a psychiatric clinic, where youth services then saw fit to lock her in an institution (without school, without access to family, ...). She was not suicidal before this, and became suicidal here.
In several other cases she claims it was because psychiatric or youth services "help" did not find her cooperative or make enough progress and then sent her to be locked up, because that's just what they do (loosely translated from her post linked below). She also claims she met a great deal other youths that were in a similar situation (not able to be treated, and then locked up instead).
She claims she was put into an isolation cell for months, constantly scolded by the employees of youth services, punished unfairly and arbitrarily and that generally she left youth services' care in much worse shape than she entered, when looking for help.
5) she was assisted in committing suicide, even if that was not active suicide, but rather starving herself out.
She's written a book about it. "Winning or learning" (Winnen of Leren) by Noa Pothoven. Dutch book. About experiencing trauma at a young age. About the enormously negative influence the Dutch help system had in her life. No translation available.
[1] https://www.hsleiden.nl/binaries/content/assets/hsl/lectoraten/residentiele-jeugdzorg/nieuws/blog-noa-020419.pdf https://www.hsleiden.nl/binaries/content/assets/hsl/lectorat... (in Dutch)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- jrace 7y agoI would call it allowed suicide. She was not assisted in dying, nor was her death painless or merciful. She was merely not stopped from allowing herself to die.
- draw_down 7y agoYes, she killed herself.
- yjftsjthsd-h 7y agoI believe the technical term is "manslaughter".
- a1369209993 7y agoBased on your description, I'd call it "murder", though I suspect a lawyer would have more techinical terminology - and probably also bad news related to bullshit waivers and/or the Dutch legislature. Phrases like "tortured to death" are somewhat excessive, but mainly because it sounds more like gross incompetence and depraved indifference than active malice. I haven't bothered investigating enough to have a opinion on whether your description is accurate though.
- tinco 7y agoBecause euthanasia is a good thing, a mercy that you allow your fellow human being suffering the harshest of cruelties the world forces upon us, and this was not a good thing. Euthanasia is saying we love you and there's nothing else left we can do to help you. What happened to this girl seems to be the opposite.
- ajross 7y ago> Is this not euthanasia ? Why the hell not ? Because it's a suicide. We already have a word for what happens to people who die after refusing food. In fact the only reason the word "euthanasia" is being considered at all is because before she died she ended up in an end of life clinic that also provided assisted death services to other patients. This is exactly like accusing someone of having had an abortion because their miscarriage was diagnosed at Planned Parenthood. (A scenario, I point out, that now seems a whole lot more likely given the horrifying way this is being portrayed in the right wing press)
- drilldrive 7y agoHmm, a miscarriage is not an intentional act, whereas there is intention in this case. It is moreso analagous to someone at planned parenthood not authorizing an abortion but providing either direct or indirect assistance for the woman to perform the abortion herself.
- ajross 7y agoI'm sorry, what on earth is "indirect assistance" to someone refusing to eat? What people seem to be conflating here is the idea of involuntary care and "euthanasia". It's true that sometimes courts will allow doctor's to force-feed patients through an IV. For various reasons (I'm no expert on Danish medical law) that didn't happen here. And that is a controversial area of medical ethics and worth discussing calmly and rationally. But to freak out, shriek on social media and HN, and call this "euthanasia" is straight up ridiculous spin. And the ONLY reason this story even has legs is because of the facility. If this happened in a hospital it would be a routine tragedy and not a political flytrap for right wing moralists.
- candiodari 7y ago> I'm sorry, what on earth is "indirect assistance" to someone refusing to eat? Making them comfortable. Taking care of other needs (washing, teeth, ...). Some level of pain medication. General support. > It's true that sometimes courts will allow doctor's to force-feed patients through an IV Which did happen in this case by the way (with a stomach probe not with an IV). For years. Including months spent by this girl in isolation cells. > routine tragedy and not a political flytrap for right wing moralists. I'm not sure I've seen this used as a right wing moral cause (I don't understand why you'd say this, it's not about immigration, it's not about money, ...). Or if it's just that the state and the help system spectacularly failing this girl (in fact arguably causing her suicidal tendencies while attempting to solve other problems with brutal repression). Yeah perhaps. It did happen though.
- rejschaap 7y ago"Not euthanasia, but how would you call it ?" I would just call it incredibly sad. It is not euthanasia as defined by Dutch law. Which is something a lot of the media reporting the story are getting wrong. And is the main point of this article. It is also not euthanasia in the more literal sense of a "good/merciful death". Slowly starving yourself to death is not a good way to die. It is pretty much the opposite. If her request for euthanasia was granted she would have died in a much more humane and peaceful way. Unfortunately for her it was not possible to be euthanized.