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The battleground was fascism vs. capitalism vs. communism. Fascism was, at it's core, reactionairy to the rise of communism and it's dishonest to describe it si

by ng12 7y ago

The battleground was fascism vs. capitalism vs. communism. Fascism was, at it's core, reactionairy to the rise of communism and it's dishonest to describe it simply as "white nationalism". Furthermore, for a "white nationalist" movement they spent a whole lot of time killing and oppressing other "whites".

0815test 7y ago
Fascism was not "reactionary". It was, in many ways, a sibling ideology to 'communism', but with glorification of violence, a broadly "irrational" (i.e. explicitly anti-intellectual, and almost relishing in the use of blatant propaganda as a means of influence) attitude to mass politics and either nationalist or (in the more extreme Nazi version) racially-supremacist ideology as major selling points. "White nationalist" is somewhat inaccurate as you point out but "reactionary" is totally wrong, and Soviet propaganda is the only reason why some people today still think of fascism as "conservative" or "reactionary".
- ng12 7y ago
  > Fascism was not "reactionary" Fascists gained power in Italy, Germany, and Spain as a direct result of anti-communist sentiment (and in the case of Germany, a failed communist revolution). Mussolini's early writings were directly proposing nationalism as the answer to communism's failures. Everywhere fascism had success it was because it was pitted against the threat of communism. I don't know how the rise of Fascism was anything but reactionary.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    I agree that facism's rise was tied to nationalism's rise. But we're talking about the root causes of WWII. And one of the Nazi party's specific goals when invading Poland was to exterminate the Jews and Roma (Gypsy) populations of Europe.
    - Fins 7y ago
      > And one of the Nazi party's specific goals when invading Poland was to exterminate the Jews and Roma (Gypsy) populations of Europe. Are you sure about that? Wasn't "the final solution" proposed significantly later?
- spamizbad 7y ago
  It is absolutely reactionary, but it's a reaction against enlightenment thinking. This explains many of its key attributes: Use of propaganda, anti-intellectualism, and rejecting egalitarianism. It's also why it's not easily dispatched by enlightenment thinking... it survived those battles back in the 20th century and ultimately had to be put down with exercises of power (often military, sometimes social, rarely diplomatic).
rhcom2 7y ago
They didn't think of them as "white".
- ng12 7y ago
  Well, they didn't think of anyone as "white" in a meaningful way. They were primarily concerned with Pan-Germanicism.
  - danans 7y ago
    > They were primarily concerned with Pan-Germanicism. If that was the case, then why did their policies include the murder of millions of German-speaking Jews, Gypsies, and people with disabilities. What was it about those people that made them not fit the category of "German"? The answer from clearly documented history is that the Nazis systematized the categorization of humans on their deeply flawed model of the Aryan "race", and singled out those who didn't fit for subjugation or extermination. Conversely they also planned to further "purify" their own people by planning to subject Scandinavian populations to forced interbreeding programs upon conquering them, and kidnapping "Aryan" children from neighboring countries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn https://allthatsinteresting.com/lebensborn https://allthatsinteresting.com/lebensborn
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      There is also historical conflicts between ethnic Germans and other ethnic groups. The Nazi's had a plan to exterminate most Slavs which includes Poles, Russians and Ukrainians after they won the war. See Generalplan Ost.
      - ng12 7y ago
        Slavs were explicitly not German according to the Nazi's definition. However, they were interested in re-absorbing ethnic Germans from Slavic territories.
    - ng12 7y ago
spamizbad 7y ago
Fascism started as a reaction to modernist political ideas that developed out of the enlightenment (like egalitarianism) and existential concerns like the perception of national decline (which fascism usually blames on decadence and libertine behaviors). It may have taken hold due to anti-communist sentiment, but that's separate from its philosophical underpinnings (which for fascism are a bit shaky) Communism is problematic to them because it tries to eliminate social hierarchies deemphasizing national identity. Liberalism (in the classical sense) is problematic to them because of its (perceived) amoral decadence and its ability to empower "undesirable" "outsider" individuals to garner power inside a nation through wealth.

by ng12 7y ago

0815test 7y ago

Fascism was not "reactionary". It was, in many ways, a sibling ideology to 'communism', but with glorification of violence, a broadly "irrational" (i.e. explicitly anti-intellectual, and almost relishing in the use of blatant propaganda as a means of influence) attitude to mass politics and either nationalist or (in the more extreme Nazi version) racially-supremacist ideology as major selling points. "White nationalist" is somewhat inaccurate as you point out but "reactionary" is totally wrong, and Soviet propaganda is the only reason why some people today still think of fascism as "conservative" or "reactionary".

ng12 7y ago
> Fascism was not "reactionary" Fascists gained power in Italy, Germany, and Spain as a direct result of anti-communist sentiment (and in the case of Germany, a failed communist revolution). Mussolini's early writings were directly proposing nationalism as the answer to communism's failures. Everywhere fascism had success it was because it was pitted against the threat of communism. I don't know how the rise of Fascism was anything but reactionary.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  I agree that facism's rise was tied to nationalism's rise. But we're talking about the root causes of WWII. And one of the Nazi party's specific goals when invading Poland was to exterminate the Jews and Roma (Gypsy) populations of Europe.
  - Fins 7y ago
    > And one of the Nazi party's specific goals when invading Poland was to exterminate the Jews and Roma (Gypsy) populations of Europe. Are you sure about that? Wasn't "the final solution" proposed significantly later?
spamizbad 7y ago
It is absolutely reactionary, but it's a reaction against enlightenment thinking. This explains many of its key attributes: Use of propaganda, anti-intellectualism, and rejecting egalitarianism. It's also why it's not easily dispatched by enlightenment thinking... it survived those battles back in the 20th century and ultimately had to be put down with exercises of power (often military, sometimes social, rarely diplomatic).

rhcom2 7y ago

They didn't think of them as "white".

ng12 7y ago
Well, they didn't think of anyone as "white" in a meaningful way. They were primarily concerned with Pan-Germanicism.
- danans 7y ago
  > They were primarily concerned with Pan-Germanicism. If that was the case, then why did their policies include the murder of millions of German-speaking Jews, Gypsies, and people with disabilities. What was it about those people that made them not fit the category of "German"? The answer from clearly documented history is that the Nazis systematized the categorization of humans on their deeply flawed model of the Aryan "race", and singled out those who didn't fit for subjugation or extermination. Conversely they also planned to further "purify" their own people by planning to subject Scandinavian populations to forced interbreeding programs upon conquering them, and kidnapping "Aryan" children from neighboring countries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn https://allthatsinteresting.com/lebensborn https://allthatsinteresting.com/lebensborn
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    There is also historical conflicts between ethnic Germans and other ethnic groups. The Nazi's had a plan to exterminate most Slavs which includes Poles, Russians and Ukrainians after they won the war. See Generalplan Ost.
    - ng12 7y ago
      Slavs were explicitly not German according to the Nazi's definition. However, they were interested in re-absorbing ethnic Germans from Slavic territories.
  - ng12 7y ago

spamizbad 7y ago

Fascism started as a reaction to modernist political ideas that developed out of the enlightenment (like egalitarianism) and existential concerns like the perception of national decline (which fascism usually blames on decadence and libertine behaviors). It may have taken hold due to anti-communist sentiment, but that's separate from its philosophical underpinnings (which for fascism are a bit shaky) Communism is problematic to them because it tries to eliminate social hierarchies deemphasizing national identity. Liberalism (in the classical sense) is problematic to them because of its (perceived) amoral decadence and its ability to empower "undesirable" "outsider" individuals to garner power inside a nation through wealth.