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Mother's Day is the biggest day for retailers. I wouldn't say that things typical mothers of yesteryear did were lesser. Speaking as a 43 year our mothers were

Mother's Day is the biggest day for retailers. I wouldn't say that things typical mothers of yesteryear did were lesser. Speaking as a 43 year our mothers were less in the public eye but they definitely in our hearts.

watwut 7y ago
That is not enough for men to take "you should be more like women" as compliment or inspiring ambition back then. Typical mother of yesteryear was soccer mom and it is used as insult to this day. Typical mother of yesteryear would call with friends a lot, because she spent most of time completely alone in house otherwise - and that was but of jokes often. She would make big deal over non-existent color shade differences (this might have to do with men being more likely to be colorblind). When she complained, one just knew she is oversensitive. It does not really matter how they really were and that their husbands were alright respectful guys. What matters is that there was that collective stereotype that added up to "I dont want to be like that" for many people. > Instead of telling men to slow down and take care of their kids we tell women to forget about kids and follow men in their insane quest for professional conquests. It is not just abstract us telling men and women what they should focus on out of other context. It is more that being more like women was not appealing enough proposition to average guy. That would be something emasculating, something other guys would mock. The cool guy considers feminine things stupid - regardless of whether the thing would be actually good for him. The reverse works differently. Being more like what guys do was something inspiring for enough women. Not all, but enough. The cool girl is often the one that crosses gender boundary - even when it is not actually good for her.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  You’re cherry picking various stereotypes from different time periods and not including the bad stereotypes men had in the 20th century as well: the oafish dad, the wannabe player, the nerd, dumb jock... None of this says much about people’s place in the world, more that 20th century sitcoms went for easy laughs. The reality is that being a mother has always been seen as a powerful important role (because it is). It wasn’t until the late 20th century that diminished often at the hands of feminists. You seem focused on the idea that telling a man to be like a woman is an insult but for as long as I’ve been alive people have been telling men to get in touch with their sensitive side, do more duties around the house... I don’t think you’re accurately describing the big picture, just one slice of one piece of mainstream, late 20th century culture.
  - watwut 7y ago
    The 20th century culture is what is relevant to changes by the end of 20th century. Thomas Aquinas opinions or Ancient Rome opinions are much less relevant to the outcome. Are you saying that a men or boy would take "you are like a girl" as a compliment? Or that femininity was something men would inspire to? Because afaik, while the girl who "is like a boy" is breaking rules, the expression is less humiliating then other way round. A boy in pink is more mockable then girl in blue. This alone tilts a lot peoples decisions on what they want for themselves and which wishes they show in public. Mothers were not powerful except limited power over children, not in the usual "can get her way effortlessly in important things" way. It was not matriarchy for long time. I am not saying they were slaves or something. There were places where female social status depended greatly on number of children. In that sense, being mother was advantageous. But calling it powerful position is a stretch. But for that matter, it is not like fatherhood was some kind of super powerful position, through it added social status where family was valued too. Father had great power over children, but calling it powerful position is a stretch too. Yes, there are changes and increasingly more toward pushing men more toward that household works and emotional contributions. That is framed more as duty and work. Less as something men organizations push for as thing-men-should-want. Men do play more with small children or wash dishes etc. But the mass interest for changes in the past was the other way round. There is difference between "I want better career for me" and "you should wash dishes more often".
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      First of all I don’t think telling someone that they should be more like the opposite gender has ever been well received. I dispute your point that telling a woman to be more like a man is less of an insult than the opposite statement. I also think you’re downplaying the importance of mothers not just in the family unit but in society as a whole. Mother’s Day has always been a bigger deal than Father’s Day. Aside from optics the personal influence that a mother has traditionally had over children of both genders is second to none. That’s very powerful. Having a career isn’t very powerful for most people. You have multiple layers of people above you (your “superiors”) that have a very large amount of control over your life in exchange for a potentially livable wage. You can be fired at any time, for almost any reason. I don’t think divorce happens as easily.
- mmsimanga 7y ago
  To add to sibling comment[0]. As I grow older I marvel at how the world behaves as if we are still in high school. Where I went to school there were definitely cool kids and most of us guys aspired to be in the football/rugby team. Our excuse back then was being teenagers. Now in hindsight, I realise there is no such thing as better. It is all relative. A man working a thankless corporate job for a lifetime only to be given a watch, to be managed by an MBA who knows nothing about the actual work isn't better than a woman who spends time raising her children. Man ends up with a watch and not so great relationship with his children and the woman ends up with deep love of her children. It is all relative. Some people love corporate life others find it suffocating. I wish people would stop saying something is better. By all means, doors should be opened for everyone so they have a chance to try it out. Maybe being a stay at home mom isn't for all women, that's fine too. We also need to grow a thick skin and learn to ignore people who make it seem like their chosen path is the right path. There is no such thing. Everything has pros and cons. There was great post on HN the other day, "What We Want Doesn’t Always Make Us Happy". [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20113726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20113726 [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20074303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20074303

watwut 7y ago

That is not enough for men to take "you should be more like women" as compliment or inspiring ambition back then. Typical mother of yesteryear was soccer mom and it is used as insult to this day. Typical mother of yesteryear would call with friends a lot, because she spent most of time completely alone in house otherwise - and that was but of jokes often. She would make big deal over non-existent color shade differences (this might have to do with men being more likely to be colorblind). When she complained, one just knew she is oversensitive. It does not really matter how they really were and that their husbands were alright respectful guys. What matters is that there was that collective stereotype that added up to "I dont want to be like that" for many people. > Instead of telling men to slow down and take care of their kids we tell women to forget about kids and follow men in their insane quest for professional conquests. It is not just abstract us telling men and women what they should focus on out of other context. It is more that being more like women was not appealing enough proposition to average guy. That would be something emasculating, something other guys would mock. The cool guy considers feminine things stupid - regardless of whether the thing would be actually good for him. The reverse works differently. Being more like what guys do was something inspiring for enough women. Not all, but enough. The cool girl is often the one that crosses gender boundary - even when it is not actually good for her.

malvosenior 7y ago
You’re cherry picking various stereotypes from different time periods and not including the bad stereotypes men had in the 20th century as well: the oafish dad, the wannabe player, the nerd, dumb jock... None of this says much about people’s place in the world, more that 20th century sitcoms went for easy laughs. The reality is that being a mother has always been seen as a powerful important role (because it is). It wasn’t until the late 20th century that diminished often at the hands of feminists. You seem focused on the idea that telling a man to be like a woman is an insult but for as long as I’ve been alive people have been telling men to get in touch with their sensitive side, do more duties around the house... I don’t think you’re accurately describing the big picture, just one slice of one piece of mainstream, late 20th century culture.
- watwut 7y ago
  The 20th century culture is what is relevant to changes by the end of 20th century. Thomas Aquinas opinions or Ancient Rome opinions are much less relevant to the outcome. Are you saying that a men or boy would take "you are like a girl" as a compliment? Or that femininity was something men would inspire to? Because afaik, while the girl who "is like a boy" is breaking rules, the expression is less humiliating then other way round. A boy in pink is more mockable then girl in blue. This alone tilts a lot peoples decisions on what they want for themselves and which wishes they show in public. Mothers were not powerful except limited power over children, not in the usual "can get her way effortlessly in important things" way. It was not matriarchy for long time. I am not saying they were slaves or something. There were places where female social status depended greatly on number of children. In that sense, being mother was advantageous. But calling it powerful position is a stretch. But for that matter, it is not like fatherhood was some kind of super powerful position, through it added social status where family was valued too. Father had great power over children, but calling it powerful position is a stretch too. Yes, there are changes and increasingly more toward pushing men more toward that household works and emotional contributions. That is framed more as duty and work. Less as something men organizations push for as thing-men-should-want. Men do play more with small children or wash dishes etc. But the mass interest for changes in the past was the other way round. There is difference between "I want better career for me" and "you should wash dishes more often".
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    First of all I don’t think telling someone that they should be more like the opposite gender has ever been well received. I dispute your point that telling a woman to be more like a man is less of an insult than the opposite statement. I also think you’re downplaying the importance of mothers not just in the family unit but in society as a whole. Mother’s Day has always been a bigger deal than Father’s Day. Aside from optics the personal influence that a mother has traditionally had over children of both genders is second to none. That’s very powerful. Having a career isn’t very powerful for most people. You have multiple layers of people above you (your “superiors”) that have a very large amount of control over your life in exchange for a potentially livable wage. You can be fired at any time, for almost any reason. I don’t think divorce happens as easily.
mmsimanga 7y ago
To add to sibling comment[0]. As I grow older I marvel at how the world behaves as if we are still in high school. Where I went to school there were definitely cool kids and most of us guys aspired to be in the football/rugby team. Our excuse back then was being teenagers. Now in hindsight, I realise there is no such thing as better. It is all relative. A man working a thankless corporate job for a lifetime only to be given a watch, to be managed by an MBA who knows nothing about the actual work isn't better than a woman who spends time raising her children. Man ends up with a watch and not so great relationship with his children and the woman ends up with deep love of her children. It is all relative. Some people love corporate life others find it suffocating. I wish people would stop saying something is better. By all means, doors should be opened for everyone so they have a chance to try it out. Maybe being a stay at home mom isn't for all women, that's fine too. We also need to grow a thick skin and learn to ignore people who make it seem like their chosen path is the right path. There is no such thing. Everything has pros and cons. There was great post on HN the other day, "What We Want Doesn’t Always Make Us Happy". [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20113726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20113726 [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20074303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20074303