6 ms·

It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India, when there's no such as a national language in India. There are two officia

by Jagat 7y ago

It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India, when there's no such as a national language in India. There are two official languages for union government communication - Hindi and English. I've also noticed that a lot of non Indians find it funny that most Indians here in bay area companies communicate among themselves in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language.

_emacsomancer_ 7y ago
The original plan was, of course, to phase out English as a national language. This never happened, I suppose partially because while 'Hindustani' (as was) made sense as a symbol of unity during the time leading up to Independence, afterwards, especially as 'Hindi', it was seen more as a regional language (even if the region involved is large) and so not necessarily more deserving of official nation-level status than Bengali or Tamil. English ends up being more neutral in many ways (though, of course, not without its own (post-colonial) baggage). > I've also noticed that a lot of non Indians find it funny that most Indians here in bay area companies communicate among themselves in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language. Ah, yes, of course, 'the Indian language'. :)
- sn41 7y ago
  Besides the fact that in states like Kerala, for example, where you have nearly 92 percent literacy, declaring Hindi as official language will result in nearly 0 percent literacy. I think just like Charkha, and village-based self-sufficient economies, the idea of Hindi as a national language should be discarded as an idea whose time has gone.
- naravara 7y ago
  I always thought India would have functioned better if it had confederated under a Swiss style cantonment system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland). They maybe could have even avoided partition this way too. And whatever paroxysms of violence from internal migration might have been mitigated against if it was all being overseen by a single government and army instead of the three-way clusterfuck of the actual partition. There would have needed to be some system for maintaining a rough level of parity/equality of representation of various minority groups at the high level. Scheduled castes and tribes would probably not have been as well protected under such a system, for example, but it's probably something than could have been worked out with effort.
  - masklinn 7y ago
    > I always thought India would have functioned better if it had confederated under a Swiss style cantonment system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland). They maybe could have even avoided partition this way too. In what way? Having even more autonomy than they have as states?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- sridca 7y ago
  > [English's] own (post-colonial) baggage What are those? It is just a language people speak.
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    Not sure if you are being serious, or what point you're trying to make. English is the language spoken by the people who ruled India as a colony for 200 years (the East India Company for the first hundred; the British state directly for the next).
    - sridca 7y ago
      I'm aware of that history. The word "baggage" has negative connotations (to burdens and impediments); so my question really is by speaking English, as an Indian-born national, what burden or impediment does the speaker experience? -- Responding inline due to lame moderation caps. > I interpreted the OP's use of the word "baggage" not to mean a burden or impediment But that's exactly what the word means! :-P bag·gage /ˈbaɡij/ past experiences or long-held ideas regarded as burdens and impediments. "the emotional baggage I'm hauling around" > but instead a cultural and political reason why some Indians might hesitate to consider English their national language. And why would they hesitate if not due to feeling the burdens and impediments of their country's history?
      - umanwizard 7y ago
        I interpreted the OP's use of the word "baggage" not to mean a burden or impediment for individual speakers, but instead a cultural and political reason why some Indians might hesitate to consider English their national language.
    - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
      The East India Company was granted a Royal Charter by Elizabeth I on 31 December 1600, so John Company was in India for even longer than that: originally not as 'rulers' as such, but traders with trading posts (called 'factories' at the time). But traders with warehouses holding precious goods ended up needing security, which turned into private armies, and so on.
vram22 7y ago
>in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language. Also called "Indian" by some non-Indians, as in: "sorry, I don't speak Indian" :) A bit like saying "chai tea", mentioned in the recent thread about the history of tea. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20015505 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20015505 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20009037 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20009037
- atonse 7y ago
  And naan bread.
- throwmex 7y ago
  Yeah totally, from the moment when they realize I am from India, they say they watch bollywood in Netflix to which I say "I do not speak much Hindi and I seldom watch bollywood movies" They must be thinking i'm pulling their leg.
pkd 7y ago
> I've also noticed that a lot of non Indians find it funny that most Indians here in bay area companies communicate among themselves in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language. I don't live in the Bay area but when I meet another Indian abroad, I still initiate conversation with them in English because it's not fair to assume that they'd speak the languages that I speak.
gwbas1c 7y ago
> It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India, when there's no such as a national language in India. It's amazing how most Americans believe that English is the national language of the US, when where's no such thing as a national language in the US.
- manfredo 7y ago
  Concluding that English is the national language of the US is totally reasonable. Most government documents are in English. The Constitution is in English. English is the language overwhelmingly taught in schools, used in the workplace, and is the most spoken language in the country by far. Saying that English isn't the official language in the US is really just highlighting the fact that the Federal government hasn't bothered to designate an official language. In fact, 32 states have designated English as an official language. For all practical purposes the official language of the US is English. This is much different from the India where only ~40% of the population are native Hindi speakers. More than 2/3rds of the US population only speaks English, and under 10% of the population have English proficiently categorized as "less than proficient" (but often this is still enough to get by).
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    English is clearly dominant, but official linguistic pluralism does exist in the US in some ways. For example: * Large parts of the US provide ballots and other voting materials in Spanish (or Vietnamese, or Chinese, or various Native American languages, ...). * Courts in the US will go to pretty extreme lengths to find interpreters for criminal defendants who can't understand English, even if their native language is somewhat obscure. * There were public schools teaching primarily in Spanish until at least the early 2000s in Arizona; not sure if they still exist in other places. There are definitely still private schools teaching in non-English languages in some parts of the country, particularly Yiddish. Anyway, making explicit any link between citizenship on the one hand and language or culture on the other is considered a somewhat solidly right-wing belief in the US (and I would expect in other countries that began their history as settler colonies, like Canada or Australia), whereas it would seem like much more of a centrist consensus in even some overall more progressive-leaning societies (from Article 2 of the French Constitution: "The language of the Republic is French". I would be shocked if France lets you vote in Arabic or teach public school classes in Lingala). Because it's perceived as solidly right wing, and the other side of the political spectrum will fight it tooth and nail, it's hard for me to imagine the US declaring English as a federal official language in the foreseeable future.
Arun2009 7y ago
> heavily accented English instead of The Indian language. Over the years I have grown to think of English as an honorary Indian language, kind of like the Mother Theresa of Indian languages. Not a mother-tongue perhaps, but definitely, a beloved aunty-tongue at the very least.
rishav_sharan 7y ago
Thats because the Class 1 CBSE books said that Hindi is our national language, Peacock is the national bird, Tiger the national animal and Hockey the national sport. :D
- iamrohitbanga 7y ago
  That's not entirely correct. Hindi is the official language of Republic of India. That is why 14 September is celebrated as Hindi Divas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi_Divas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi_Divas
  - viewtransform 7y ago
    That is not entirely correct either. Hindi and English are official languages of the Republic of India. If you watched the swearing-in ceremony of the recent Modi government some cabinet members chose to be sworn-in in English.
  - talonx 7y ago
    There is a difference between "national" and "official".
sdiq 7y ago
>in heavily accented English This reminded me of Mike Tyson - https://youtu.be/3QC-H9ozuSQ?t=156 https://youtu.be/3QC-H9ozuSQ?t=156
- sridca 7y ago
  That's amusing. It does however take some time to get used another person's accent. I sure had difficulty in the beginning with the English accent of my Scottish coworker (not to mention American/Canadian accent itself when I was a new immigrant).
umanwizard 7y ago
> It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India I am not Indian, so please correct my outsider's perspective if it is wrong, but from what I have seen, this is mainly believed by North Indians, and often deeply resented by South Indians, who are more likely to view English as a common, neutral, pan-Indian lingua franca, and Hindi as too North-centric to be appropriate for that role.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pvelagal 7y ago
  Your perspective is correct. Hindi has been imposed only recently after Independence and there have been protests/movements pre-Independence too. For eg: None of my uncles/aunts or my grand parents generation know Hindi. I learnt it (or had to learn it) only because of school policy , not personal choice.
- Jagat 7y ago
  You'd be surprised how it's a common belief even in south India where hindi isn't spoken.

by Jagat 7y ago

_emacsomancer_ 7y ago

The original plan was, of course, to phase out English as a national language. This never happened, I suppose partially because while 'Hindustani' (as was) made sense as a symbol of unity during the time leading up to Independence, afterwards, especially as 'Hindi', it was seen more as a regional language (even if the region involved is large) and so not necessarily more deserving of official nation-level status than Bengali or Tamil. English ends up being more neutral in many ways (though, of course, not without its own (post-colonial) baggage). > I've also noticed that a lot of non Indians find it funny that most Indians here in bay area companies communicate among themselves in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language. Ah, yes, of course, 'the Indian language'. :)

sn41 7y ago
Besides the fact that in states like Kerala, for example, where you have nearly 92 percent literacy, declaring Hindi as official language will result in nearly 0 percent literacy. I think just like Charkha, and village-based self-sufficient economies, the idea of Hindi as a national language should be discarded as an idea whose time has gone.
naravara 7y ago
I always thought India would have functioned better if it had confederated under a Swiss style cantonment system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland). They maybe could have even avoided partition this way too. And whatever paroxysms of violence from internal migration might have been mitigated against if it was all being overseen by a single government and army instead of the three-way clusterfuck of the actual partition. There would have needed to be some system for maintaining a rough level of parity/equality of representation of various minority groups at the high level. Scheduled castes and tribes would probably not have been as well protected under such a system, for example, but it's probably something than could have been worked out with effort.
- masklinn 7y ago
  > I always thought India would have functioned better if it had confederated under a Swiss style cantonment system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland). They maybe could have even avoided partition this way too. In what way? Having even more autonomy than they have as states?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
sridca 7y ago
> [English's] own (post-colonial) baggage What are those? It is just a language people speak.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  Not sure if you are being serious, or what point you're trying to make. English is the language spoken by the people who ruled India as a colony for 200 years (the East India Company for the first hundred; the British state directly for the next).
  - sridca 7y ago
    I'm aware of that history. The word "baggage" has negative connotations (to burdens and impediments); so my question really is by speaking English, as an Indian-born national, what burden or impediment does the speaker experience? -- Responding inline due to lame moderation caps. > I interpreted the OP's use of the word "baggage" not to mean a burden or impediment But that's exactly what the word means! :-P bag·gage /ˈbaɡij/ past experiences or long-held ideas regarded as burdens and impediments. "the emotional baggage I'm hauling around" > but instead a cultural and political reason why some Indians might hesitate to consider English their national language. And why would they hesitate if not due to feeling the burdens and impediments of their country's history?
    - umanwizard 7y ago
      I interpreted the OP's use of the word "baggage" not to mean a burden or impediment for individual speakers, but instead a cultural and political reason why some Indians might hesitate to consider English their national language.
  - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
    The East India Company was granted a Royal Charter by Elizabeth I on 31 December 1600, so John Company was in India for even longer than that: originally not as 'rulers' as such, but traders with trading posts (called 'factories' at the time). But traders with warehouses holding precious goods ended up needing security, which turned into private armies, and so on.

vram22 7y ago

>in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language. Also called "Indian" by some non-Indians, as in: "sorry, I don't speak Indian" :) A bit like saying "chai tea", mentioned in the recent thread about the history of tea. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20015505 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20015505 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20009037 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20009037

atonse 7y ago
And naan bread.
throwmex 7y ago
Yeah totally, from the moment when they realize I am from India, they say they watch bollywood in Netflix to which I say "I do not speak much Hindi and I seldom watch bollywood movies" They must be thinking i'm pulling their leg.

pkd 7y ago

> I've also noticed that a lot of non Indians find it funny that most Indians here in bay area companies communicate among themselves in heavily accented English instead of The Indian language. I don't live in the Bay area but when I meet another Indian abroad, I still initiate conversation with them in English because it's not fair to assume that they'd speak the languages that I speak.

gwbas1c 7y ago

> It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India, when there's no such as a national language in India. It's amazing how most Americans believe that English is the national language of the US, when where's no such thing as a national language in the US.

manfredo 7y ago
Concluding that English is the national language of the US is totally reasonable. Most government documents are in English. The Constitution is in English. English is the language overwhelmingly taught in schools, used in the workplace, and is the most spoken language in the country by far. Saying that English isn't the official language in the US is really just highlighting the fact that the Federal government hasn't bothered to designate an official language. In fact, 32 states have designated English as an official language. For all practical purposes the official language of the US is English. This is much different from the India where only ~40% of the population are native Hindi speakers. More than 2/3rds of the US population only speaks English, and under 10% of the population have English proficiently categorized as "less than proficient" (but often this is still enough to get by).
- umanwizard 7y ago
  English is clearly dominant, but official linguistic pluralism does exist in the US in some ways. For example: * Large parts of the US provide ballots and other voting materials in Spanish (or Vietnamese, or Chinese, or various Native American languages, ...). * Courts in the US will go to pretty extreme lengths to find interpreters for criminal defendants who can't understand English, even if their native language is somewhat obscure. * There were public schools teaching primarily in Spanish until at least the early 2000s in Arizona; not sure if they still exist in other places. There are definitely still private schools teaching in non-English languages in some parts of the country, particularly Yiddish. Anyway, making explicit any link between citizenship on the one hand and language or culture on the other is considered a somewhat solidly right-wing belief in the US (and I would expect in other countries that began their history as settler colonies, like Canada or Australia), whereas it would seem like much more of a centrist consensus in even some overall more progressive-leaning societies (from Article 2 of the French Constitution: "The language of the Republic is French". I would be shocked if France lets you vote in Arabic or teach public school classes in Lingala). Because it's perceived as solidly right wing, and the other side of the political spectrum will fight it tooth and nail, it's hard for me to imagine the US declaring English as a federal official language in the foreseeable future.

Arun2009 7y ago

> heavily accented English instead of The Indian language. Over the years I have grown to think of English as an honorary Indian language, kind of like the Mother Theresa of Indian languages. Not a mother-tongue perhaps, but definitely, a beloved aunty-tongue at the very least.

rishav_sharan 7y ago

Thats because the Class 1 CBSE books said that Hindi is our national language, Peacock is the national bird, Tiger the national animal and Hockey the national sport. :D

iamrohitbanga 7y ago
That's not entirely correct. Hindi is the official language of Republic of India. That is why 14 September is celebrated as Hindi Divas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi_Divas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi_Divas
- viewtransform 7y ago
  That is not entirely correct either. Hindi and English are official languages of the Republic of India. If you watched the swearing-in ceremony of the recent Modi government some cabinet members chose to be sworn-in in English.
- talonx 7y ago
  There is a difference between "national" and "official".

sdiq 7y ago

>in heavily accented English This reminded me of Mike Tyson - https://youtu.be/3QC-H9ozuSQ?t=156 https://youtu.be/3QC-H9ozuSQ?t=156

sridca 7y ago
That's amusing. It does however take some time to get used another person's accent. I sure had difficulty in the beginning with the English accent of my Scottish coworker (not to mention American/Canadian accent itself when I was a new immigrant).

umanwizard 7y ago

> It's amazing how most Indians believe that Hindi is the national language of India I am not Indian, so please correct my outsider's perspective if it is wrong, but from what I have seen, this is mainly believed by North Indians, and often deeply resented by South Indians, who are more likely to view English as a common, neutral, pan-Indian lingua franca, and Hindi as too North-centric to be appropriate for that role.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pvelagal 7y ago
Your perspective is correct. Hindi has been imposed only recently after Independence and there have been protests/movements pre-Independence too. For eg: None of my uncles/aunts or my grand parents generation know Hindi. I learnt it (or had to learn it) only because of school policy , not personal choice.
Jagat 7y ago
You'd be surprised how it's a common belief even in south India where hindi isn't spoken.