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I'd consider "Mumbai Hindi" a creole. It's nominally a dialect of Hindi/Urdu but it has a lot of Marathi mixed in, among other languages.

aatharuv 7y ago
Mumbai Hindi is not a creole by any definition of linguistics. It is actually a dialect of Hindustani with Marathi and other languages mixed in. A Creole specifically occurs when two languages (usually unrelated) suddenly mix together, usually with a _greatly_ simplified (but consistent) grammar from the parent languages. It's not just the result of heavy borrowing. I don't believe that's happened for Mumbai Hindi.
- staticautomatic 7y ago
  Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.
- linguanerd 7y ago
  I believe you are confusing a "creole" with a "pidgin". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin > pidgin language, is a grammatically simplified means of communication that develops between two or more groups that do not have a language in common: typically, its vocabulary and grammar are limited and often drawn from several languages. It is most commonly employed in situations such as trade, or where both groups speak languages different from the language of the country in which they reside (but where there is no common language between the groups). Fundamentally, a pidgin is a simplified means of linguistic communication, as it is constructed impromptu, or by convention, between individuals or groups of people. A pidgin is not the native language of any speech community, but is instead learned as a second language
  - staticautomatic 7y ago
    I'm not sure Mumbai Hindi would qualify as a pidgin either then since it's definitely the native language of a significant number of people.
  - aatharuv 7y ago
    Pidgins and Creoles are on a continuum -- once pidgin's get native speakers and a stable grammar, they're creoles. But Yeah, I didn't mention that.
_emacsomancer_ 7y ago
Standard Hindi itself has some characteristics of a creole; at the very least it has had both grammatical and vocabulary influences from a number of languages, including Punjabi, Persian, Portuguese and English.
- staticautomatic 7y ago
  Come to think of it, those are all Aryan languages. Does their mixing still constitute a creole?
  - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
    Only Hindi and Punjabi are Aryan. English, Persian, and Portuguese are Indo-European but not Indo-Aryan.
    - staticautomatic 7y ago
      Not Persian? I was under the impression that Hindi is Aryan as a result of the Persian invasion of the Indian subcontinent, which also resulted in the Dravidian languages being pushed south.
      - xkgt 7y ago
        The commonly accepted view right now is that there was an Aryan migration and not an invasion over the Indian subcontinent. But there are politically motivated narratives abound that are pushing this theory to either extremes (Aryan immigration theory vs Aryan == Dravidian theory). Please don't trigger a flame war. It is surprising as it is that this topic hasn't triggered one yet.
        staticautomatic 7y ago
        Whether one calls it an invasion or a migration (I take no side), the Dravidians headed south around that time, no?

aatharuv 7y ago

Mumbai Hindi is not a creole by any definition of linguistics. It is actually a dialect of Hindustani with Marathi and other languages mixed in. A Creole specifically occurs when two languages (usually unrelated) suddenly mix together, usually with a _greatly_ simplified (but consistent) grammar from the parent languages. It's not just the result of heavy borrowing. I don't believe that's happened for Mumbai Hindi.

staticautomatic 7y ago
Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.
linguanerd 7y ago
I believe you are confusing a "creole" with a "pidgin". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin > pidgin language, is a grammatically simplified means of communication that develops between two or more groups that do not have a language in common: typically, its vocabulary and grammar are limited and often drawn from several languages. It is most commonly employed in situations such as trade, or where both groups speak languages different from the language of the country in which they reside (but where there is no common language between the groups). Fundamentally, a pidgin is a simplified means of linguistic communication, as it is constructed impromptu, or by convention, between individuals or groups of people. A pidgin is not the native language of any speech community, but is instead learned as a second language
- staticautomatic 7y ago
  I'm not sure Mumbai Hindi would qualify as a pidgin either then since it's definitely the native language of a significant number of people.
- aatharuv 7y ago
  Pidgins and Creoles are on a continuum -- once pidgin's get native speakers and a stable grammar, they're creoles. But Yeah, I didn't mention that.

_emacsomancer_ 7y ago

Standard Hindi itself has some characteristics of a creole; at the very least it has had both grammatical and vocabulary influences from a number of languages, including Punjabi, Persian, Portuguese and English.

staticautomatic 7y ago
Come to think of it, those are all Aryan languages. Does their mixing still constitute a creole?
- _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
  Only Hindi and Punjabi are Aryan. English, Persian, and Portuguese are Indo-European but not Indo-Aryan.
  - staticautomatic 7y ago
    Not Persian? I was under the impression that Hindi is Aryan as a result of the Persian invasion of the Indian subcontinent, which also resulted in the Dravidian languages being pushed south.
    - xkgt 7y ago
      The commonly accepted view right now is that there was an Aryan migration and not an invasion over the Indian subcontinent. But there are politically motivated narratives abound that are pushing this theory to either extremes (Aryan immigration theory vs Aryan == Dravidian theory). Please don't trigger a flame war. It is surprising as it is that this topic hasn't triggered one yet.
      - staticautomatic 7y ago
        Whether one calls it an invasion or a migration (I take no side), the Dravidians headed south around that time, no?