4 ms·

Grad school really needs to have a cost/benefit analysis applied. I'd have loved to go and really deepen my understanding, but it's pretty clear that both in t

Grad school really needs to have a cost/benefit analysis applied. I'd have loved to go and really deepen my understanding, but it's pretty clear that both in terms of income lost and not a huge premium paid by the industry over my BS and experience it's not worth it. It is something I may pursue if I get a windfall and am no longer concerned about retirement.

duxup 7y ago
I think maybe the only real way to know what the cost benefit might be for an individual is to just ... go work for a while and then see what you find in your experience and life. Then you're making a much more educated calculation as far as what you think it might get you, and if you want to go back to school and that. Just throwing that all on the front end while you're in school seems a bit like gambling.
- rongenre 7y ago
  The only advantage I can see to going for an MS straight out of undergrad is that your lifestyle should be pretty low-rent. But doing grad school because you're good at school and don't know what else to do is a trap lots of otherwise smart people fall into.
  - duxup 7y ago
    >But doing grad school because you're good at school and don't know what else to do is a trap lots of otherwise smart people fall into. I suspect that is very much a thing. School is a great system that if you're good at it provides very clear paths to lots of affirmation and ... a good time. I don't blame anyone for being hesitant to step out of that bubble.... but not doing so can be pretty terrible too.
  - fma 7y ago
    It's a major advantage. I went to the same state university for my masters, so to me it was a continuation of my undergrad but in classes I was actually interested in. Even dumping money into a startup, I graduated with a low amount of debt. I lived a thrifty lifestyle, made money from internships, and after my sign on bonus for my full time job, I was debt free after graduation. My concentration for my MS was AI & Computer Networks...which I've never used :) Because of market forces I'm an application developer. I graduated 11 years ago and between then and now (married, 2 kids) I doubt I would have found the time and motivation to go back to school. It was around the housing crisis and jobs were crappy/not available so that was another motivation to do my MS. I also had the connections to form a startup (which failed) with other peers which has lead me to my current career.
  - WorldMaker 7y ago
    I continue to debate if my Masters (MEng) was a good idea in hindsight. My University's program was targeted at an "accelerated" MEng rather than a BS with grad and undergrad classes overlapped, so finish the MEng was a lot of momentum from when I signed up for undergrad. I was pretty certain I'd never have finished a Masters if I didn't finish straight through like I did. On the one hand, I learned a lot from graduate classes and also used graduate school lifestyle/loans/insurance situation as an excuse/umbrella to explore a startup opportunity (that didn't succeed). On the other hand, I sometimes regret the opportunity cost of not seeking paid employment sooner, especially given the non-success of that startup attempt versus how much I loved the last employer I interned with in undergrad versus graduating in a major recession I likely couldn't have predicted. The majority of my student loans have been from the graduate semesters and it does often leave me wondering if it was worth even the financial cost.
  - geebee 7y ago
    Grad school can be a very, very dangerous trap. An M.S. isn't necessarily a risky thing to do, though, since they an be completed relatively quickly, and from a reputable CS or Engineering school, the grads are employable. At state colleges, they tend to be relatively affordable too. Professional degrees at UC schools come with very high surcharges that don't apply to academic degrees, so an MS in CS or engineering at Berkeley is $15k a year (in state tuition) instead vs ~$50k a year for the Law School (tuition is only a little higher for out of state for professional degrees). An M.S. at Berkeley does make it a easier to get on the radar of a lot of tech companies for recruiting, so that can be an advantage. That's probably not a big factor to you if you're already an undergrad at Berkeley or other well known tech feeder school, but if that's not the case for you, it could help, it's not especially expensive, and you can often do it in a year if you crank the coursework. Actually, if this was the profile of the typical student debtor, I doubt anyone would care. I read the NYTimes article, and I don't understand how anyone can say a $90k debt for art school with a starting salary of $35k is what was intended here. I mean, wow, they really did feed the beast, didn't they?
camjohnson26 7y ago
The benefit to me for my MS in comp sci was the networking. Whether you like the concept or not a lot of smart people end up going to these programs and I know people working at FAANG as a direct result. I also got exposed to concepts that no one talked about in undergrad, and it’s nice to have a theoretical focus instead of the practicalities that take over when you start working. Work experience has been valuable in a different way, and lost income is a big concern. Personally I opted for a 15 month, 4 quarter program to minimize the debt and start earning as soon as possible.
throwayEngineer 7y ago
1 out of 10 masters classes changed my life. I imagine my peers had 0/10. A masters degree doesn't pay in dollars, but experience that can set you apart in the future.
- resoluteteeth 7y ago
  > A masters degree doesn't pay in dollars, but experience that can set you apart in the future. Surely "experience that can set you apart in the future" can be captured in calculations of lifetime earnings?
  - throwayEngineer 7y ago
    Go ahead then. My website is unprofitable but it's a conversation piece. Did my website get me a 6 figure job or my undergrad in engineering?
    - resoluteteeth 7y ago
      I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make. If you're saying your website is unprofitable but helped you get a 6 figure job then it isn't really "unprofitable" in a broad sense because despite not generating revenue directly it contributed to your lifetime earnings, so I don't think this conflicts with the idea of trying to capture indirect benefits by looking at lifetime earnings. If you're saying your website is unprofitable and will never help you get a job (even as a conversation starter or indirectly through experience you obtained creating it) but is nonetheless an "experience that will set you apart" like grad school, I would disagree about whether it is really "setting you apart" after all.
    - djakjxnanjak 7y ago
      You may be able to answer the questions with a study, although it will be tough to pick all right variables to control for.
commandlinefan 7y ago
> cost/benefit analysis There's no benefit, so unless there’s no cost, don’t do it. I got a master’s degree that one of my former employers paid for, about 10 years ago. I enjoyed it, learned a lot, felt like I got out of it, but I have no reason to believe that it’s added even one dollar to my income: I’m certain I’m in exactly the same place, career-wise, that I would have been if I had just stopped with a four year degree (in fact, there are plenty of people who consider a master’s degree in CS an anti-indicator of competence: http://blog.alinelerner.com/how-different-is-a-b-s-in-computer-science-from-a-m-s-in-computer-science-when-it-comes-to-recruiting/ http://blog.alinelerner.com/how-different-is-a-b-s-in-comput...).

duxup 7y ago

I think maybe the only real way to know what the cost benefit might be for an individual is to just ... go work for a while and then see what you find in your experience and life. Then you're making a much more educated calculation as far as what you think it might get you, and if you want to go back to school and that. Just throwing that all on the front end while you're in school seems a bit like gambling.

rongenre 7y ago
The only advantage I can see to going for an MS straight out of undergrad is that your lifestyle should be pretty low-rent. But doing grad school because you're good at school and don't know what else to do is a trap lots of otherwise smart people fall into.
- duxup 7y ago
  >But doing grad school because you're good at school and don't know what else to do is a trap lots of otherwise smart people fall into. I suspect that is very much a thing. School is a great system that if you're good at it provides very clear paths to lots of affirmation and ... a good time. I don't blame anyone for being hesitant to step out of that bubble.... but not doing so can be pretty terrible too.
- fma 7y ago
  It's a major advantage. I went to the same state university for my masters, so to me it was a continuation of my undergrad but in classes I was actually interested in. Even dumping money into a startup, I graduated with a low amount of debt. I lived a thrifty lifestyle, made money from internships, and after my sign on bonus for my full time job, I was debt free after graduation. My concentration for my MS was AI & Computer Networks...which I've never used :) Because of market forces I'm an application developer. I graduated 11 years ago and between then and now (married, 2 kids) I doubt I would have found the time and motivation to go back to school. It was around the housing crisis and jobs were crappy/not available so that was another motivation to do my MS. I also had the connections to form a startup (which failed) with other peers which has lead me to my current career.
- WorldMaker 7y ago
  I continue to debate if my Masters (MEng) was a good idea in hindsight. My University's program was targeted at an "accelerated" MEng rather than a BS with grad and undergrad classes overlapped, so finish the MEng was a lot of momentum from when I signed up for undergrad. I was pretty certain I'd never have finished a Masters if I didn't finish straight through like I did. On the one hand, I learned a lot from graduate classes and also used graduate school lifestyle/loans/insurance situation as an excuse/umbrella to explore a startup opportunity (that didn't succeed). On the other hand, I sometimes regret the opportunity cost of not seeking paid employment sooner, especially given the non-success of that startup attempt versus how much I loved the last employer I interned with in undergrad versus graduating in a major recession I likely couldn't have predicted. The majority of my student loans have been from the graduate semesters and it does often leave me wondering if it was worth even the financial cost.
- geebee 7y ago
  Grad school can be a very, very dangerous trap. An M.S. isn't necessarily a risky thing to do, though, since they an be completed relatively quickly, and from a reputable CS or Engineering school, the grads are employable. At state colleges, they tend to be relatively affordable too. Professional degrees at UC schools come with very high surcharges that don't apply to academic degrees, so an MS in CS or engineering at Berkeley is $15k a year (in state tuition) instead vs ~$50k a year for the Law School (tuition is only a little higher for out of state for professional degrees). An M.S. at Berkeley does make it a easier to get on the radar of a lot of tech companies for recruiting, so that can be an advantage. That's probably not a big factor to you if you're already an undergrad at Berkeley or other well known tech feeder school, but if that's not the case for you, it could help, it's not especially expensive, and you can often do it in a year if you crank the coursework. Actually, if this was the profile of the typical student debtor, I doubt anyone would care. I read the NYTimes article, and I don't understand how anyone can say a $90k debt for art school with a starting salary of $35k is what was intended here. I mean, wow, they really did feed the beast, didn't they?

camjohnson26 7y ago

The benefit to me for my MS in comp sci was the networking. Whether you like the concept or not a lot of smart people end up going to these programs and I know people working at FAANG as a direct result. I also got exposed to concepts that no one talked about in undergrad, and it’s nice to have a theoretical focus instead of the practicalities that take over when you start working. Work experience has been valuable in a different way, and lost income is a big concern. Personally I opted for a 15 month, 4 quarter program to minimize the debt and start earning as soon as possible.

throwayEngineer 7y ago

1 out of 10 masters classes changed my life. I imagine my peers had 0/10. A masters degree doesn't pay in dollars, but experience that can set you apart in the future.

resoluteteeth 7y ago
> A masters degree doesn't pay in dollars, but experience that can set you apart in the future. Surely "experience that can set you apart in the future" can be captured in calculations of lifetime earnings?
- throwayEngineer 7y ago
  Go ahead then. My website is unprofitable but it's a conversation piece. Did my website get me a 6 figure job or my undergrad in engineering?
  - resoluteteeth 7y ago
    I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to make. If you're saying your website is unprofitable but helped you get a 6 figure job then it isn't really "unprofitable" in a broad sense because despite not generating revenue directly it contributed to your lifetime earnings, so I don't think this conflicts with the idea of trying to capture indirect benefits by looking at lifetime earnings. If you're saying your website is unprofitable and will never help you get a job (even as a conversation starter or indirectly through experience you obtained creating it) but is nonetheless an "experience that will set you apart" like grad school, I would disagree about whether it is really "setting you apart" after all.
  - djakjxnanjak 7y ago
    You may be able to answer the questions with a study, although it will be tough to pick all right variables to control for.

commandlinefan 7y ago

> cost/benefit analysis There's no benefit, so unless there’s no cost, don’t do it. I got a master’s degree that one of my former employers paid for, about 10 years ago. I enjoyed it, learned a lot, felt like I got out of it, but I have no reason to believe that it’s added even one dollar to my income: I’m certain I’m in exactly the same place, career-wise, that I would have been if I had just stopped with a four year degree (in fact, there are plenty of people who consider a master’s degree in CS an anti-indicator of competence: http://blog.alinelerner.com/how-different-is-a-b-s-in-computer-science-from-a-m-s-in-computer-science-when-it-comes-to-recruiting/ http://blog.alinelerner.com/how-different-is-a-b-s-in-comput...).