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The number of languages is stunning. Does anyone know if the number of languages is just the officially named languages or if it includes creoles? The language

The number of languages is stunning. Does anyone know if the number of languages is just the officially named languages or if it includes creoles? The language I speak is a creole of two languages and doesnt have a name or writing system really, and I'm curious to know how that is counted.

abhiyerra 7y ago
There are quite a few dialects. I don’t have the source off hand but something like 300. Also it is fun seeing the rupee notes because they have the denomination written in each of the scripts.
- jfk13 7y ago
  The distinction between "language" and "dialect" is far from clear-cut, and often determined as much by socio-political as linguistic factors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_a...
staticautomatic 7y ago
I'd consider "Mumbai Hindi" a creole. It's nominally a dialect of Hindi/Urdu but it has a lot of Marathi mixed in, among other languages.
- aatharuv 7y ago
  Mumbai Hindi is not a creole by any definition of linguistics. It is actually a dialect of Hindustani with Marathi and other languages mixed in. A Creole specifically occurs when two languages (usually unrelated) suddenly mix together, usually with a _greatly_ simplified (but consistent) grammar from the parent languages. It's not just the result of heavy borrowing. I don't believe that's happened for Mumbai Hindi.
  - staticautomatic 7y ago
    Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.
  - linguanerd 7y ago
    I believe you are confusing a "creole" with a "pidgin". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin > pidgin language, is a grammatically simplified means of communication that develops between two or more groups that do not have a language in common: typically, its vocabulary and grammar are limited and often drawn from several languages. It is most commonly employed in situations such as trade, or where both groups speak languages different from the language of the country in which they reside (but where there is no common language between the groups). Fundamentally, a pidgin is a simplified means of linguistic communication, as it is constructed impromptu, or by convention, between individuals or groups of people. A pidgin is not the native language of any speech community, but is instead learned as a second language
    - staticautomatic 7y ago
      I'm not sure Mumbai Hindi would qualify as a pidgin either then since it's definitely the native language of a significant number of people.
    - aatharuv 7y ago
      Pidgins and Creoles are on a continuum -- once pidgin's get native speakers and a stable grammar, they're creoles. But Yeah, I didn't mention that.
- _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
  Standard Hindi itself has some characteristics of a creole; at the very least it has had both grammatical and vocabulary influences from a number of languages, including Punjabi, Persian, Portuguese and English.
  - staticautomatic 7y ago
    Come to think of it, those are all Aryan languages. Does their mixing still constitute a creole?
    - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
      Only Hindi and Punjabi are Aryan. English, Persian, and Portuguese are Indo-European but not Indo-Aryan.
      - staticautomatic 7y ago
        Not Persian? I was under the impression that Hindi is Aryan as a result of the Persian invasion of the Indian subcontinent, which also resulted in the Dravidian languages being pushed south.
        xkgt 7y ago
        The commonly accepted view right now is that there was an Aryan migration and not an invasion over the Indian subcontinent. But there are politically motivated narratives abound that are pushing this theory to either extremes (Aryan immigration theory vs Aryan == Dravidian theory). Please don't trigger a flame war. It is surprising as it is that this topic hasn't triggered one yet.
        staticautomatic 7y ago
        Whether one calls it an invasion or a migration (I take no side), the Dravidians headed south around that time, no?
aatharuv 7y ago
What language do you speak that's a creole?
- vikramkr 7y ago
  It's an odd mix of Tamil and telugu, two davidian languages, barely mutually intelligible with telugu
vram22 7y ago
>The number of languages is stunning. True. From the article: >According to the Census of India of 2001, India has 122 major languages and 1599 other languages. However, figures from other sources vary, primarily due to differences in definition of the terms "language" and "dialect". The 2001 Census recorded 30 languages which were spoken by more than a million native speakers and 122 which were spoken by more than 10,000 people. When I was in high school, for instance, Hindi was one subject. Our teacher told us that there are a few major versions, like Khari Boli and Braj Bhasha and maybe Awadhi was another one (don't remember). For example, we read poetry of Tulsidas and Surdas, which were, IIRC, composed in one of the first two languages, each. Good poetry, BTW. Tulsidas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsidas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsidas Yes, Awadhi was one: Awadhi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awadhi_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awadhi_language Surdas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdas Braj Bhasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braj_Bhasa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braj_Bhasa Khariboli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khariboli_dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khariboli_dialect
sn41 7y ago
There were creole-like languages that existed in the South, usually when Dravidian culture was mixed with Sanskrit. One famous instance is "Manipravalam", which is a blend of Tamil-Malayalam with Sanskrit. I think in Manipravalam eventually led to modern Malayalam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipravalam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipravalam
_emacsomancer_ 7y ago
What language/area is it?
puranjay 7y ago
From the top of my head as a very lay person, I can count several languages that are not only completely distinct but also completely alien to me as a Hindi speaker: Marathi, Bengali, Oriya, Assamese, Kannada, Tamil, Telugu, Malyalam. These are major languages and form the basis of a lot of state boundaries.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

abhiyerra 7y ago

There are quite a few dialects. I don’t have the source off hand but something like 300. Also it is fun seeing the rupee notes because they have the denomination written in each of the scripts.

jfk13 7y ago
The distinction between "language" and "dialect" is far from clear-cut, and often determined as much by socio-political as linguistic factors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_a...

staticautomatic 7y ago

I'd consider "Mumbai Hindi" a creole. It's nominally a dialect of Hindi/Urdu but it has a lot of Marathi mixed in, among other languages.

aatharuv 7y ago
Mumbai Hindi is not a creole by any definition of linguistics. It is actually a dialect of Hindustani with Marathi and other languages mixed in. A Creole specifically occurs when two languages (usually unrelated) suddenly mix together, usually with a _greatly_ simplified (but consistent) grammar from the parent languages. It's not just the result of heavy borrowing. I don't believe that's happened for Mumbai Hindi.
- staticautomatic 7y ago
  Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.
- linguanerd 7y ago
  I believe you are confusing a "creole" with a "pidgin". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin > pidgin language, is a grammatically simplified means of communication that develops between two or more groups that do not have a language in common: typically, its vocabulary and grammar are limited and often drawn from several languages. It is most commonly employed in situations such as trade, or where both groups speak languages different from the language of the country in which they reside (but where there is no common language between the groups). Fundamentally, a pidgin is a simplified means of linguistic communication, as it is constructed impromptu, or by convention, between individuals or groups of people. A pidgin is not the native language of any speech community, but is instead learned as a second language
  - staticautomatic 7y ago
    I'm not sure Mumbai Hindi would qualify as a pidgin either then since it's definitely the native language of a significant number of people.
  - aatharuv 7y ago
    Pidgins and Creoles are on a continuum -- once pidgin's get native speakers and a stable grammar, they're creoles. But Yeah, I didn't mention that.
_emacsomancer_ 7y ago
Standard Hindi itself has some characteristics of a creole; at the very least it has had both grammatical and vocabulary influences from a number of languages, including Punjabi, Persian, Portuguese and English.
- staticautomatic 7y ago
  Come to think of it, those are all Aryan languages. Does their mixing still constitute a creole?
  - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
    Only Hindi and Punjabi are Aryan. English, Persian, and Portuguese are Indo-European but not Indo-Aryan.
    - staticautomatic 7y ago
      Not Persian? I was under the impression that Hindi is Aryan as a result of the Persian invasion of the Indian subcontinent, which also resulted in the Dravidian languages being pushed south.
      - xkgt 7y ago
        The commonly accepted view right now is that there was an Aryan migration and not an invasion over the Indian subcontinent. But there are politically motivated narratives abound that are pushing this theory to either extremes (Aryan immigration theory vs Aryan == Dravidian theory). Please don't trigger a flame war. It is surprising as it is that this topic hasn't triggered one yet.
        staticautomatic 7y ago
        Whether one calls it an invasion or a migration (I take no side), the Dravidians headed south around that time, no?

aatharuv 7y ago

What language do you speak that's a creole?

vikramkr 7y ago
It's an odd mix of Tamil and telugu, two davidian languages, barely mutually intelligible with telugu

vram22 7y ago

>The number of languages is stunning. True. From the article: >According to the Census of India of 2001, India has 122 major languages and 1599 other languages. However, figures from other sources vary, primarily due to differences in definition of the terms "language" and "dialect". The 2001 Census recorded 30 languages which were spoken by more than a million native speakers and 122 which were spoken by more than 10,000 people. When I was in high school, for instance, Hindi was one subject. Our teacher told us that there are a few major versions, like Khari Boli and Braj Bhasha and maybe Awadhi was another one (don't remember). For example, we read poetry of Tulsidas and Surdas, which were, IIRC, composed in one of the first two languages, each. Good poetry, BTW. Tulsidas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsidas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsidas Yes, Awadhi was one: Awadhi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awadhi_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awadhi_language Surdas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdas Braj Bhasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braj_Bhasa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braj_Bhasa Khariboli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khariboli_dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khariboli_dialect

sn41 7y ago

There were creole-like languages that existed in the South, usually when Dravidian culture was mixed with Sanskrit. One famous instance is "Manipravalam", which is a blend of Tamil-Malayalam with Sanskrit. I think in Manipravalam eventually led to modern Malayalam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipravalam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipravalam

_emacsomancer_ 7y ago

What language/area is it?

puranjay 7y ago

From the top of my head as a very lay person, I can count several languages that are not only completely distinct but also completely alien to me as a Hindi speaker: Marathi, Bengali, Oriya, Assamese, Kannada, Tamil, Telugu, Malyalam. These are major languages and form the basis of a lot of state boundaries.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]