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I wouldn't decide for organic because of that. Like I said in another comment in this thread, organic farming still uses pesticides, just not the synthetic one

by chicob 7y ago

I wouldn't decide for organic because of that. Like I said in another comment in this thread, organic farming still uses pesticides, just not the synthetic ones. In my opinion as a farmer, the foundational principle of Organic Farming is not a path towards better farming practices, but one that divides what is supposedly natural and organic, and what is artificial and synthetic. This has more to do with a romantic ideal of purity regarding agriculture and food production than guiding farming with principles of science-based agronomy or efficacy/efficiency decision making.

manifestsilence 7y ago
Sure, I agree the organic standard is far from perfect and has many loopholes, but it's a starting point. If there were a standard out there that instead embraced a systems-thinking view on safe practices - both chemical use and general land management, emphasizing safety for the long term health of the ecosystem, the farm economy, and the humans consuming the product - I would embrace that standard instead. Even if it were (as it might be) initially quite expensive.
- chicob 7y ago
  Your second paragraph pretty much resumes what Integrated Farming is. That is exactly what I do. And everything you do in Organic Farming can be done in Integrated Farming - you only resort to chemical solutions if there are no other options left. And even then, only if you've gone beyond a certain point beyond which the damage will out-cost the benefits of the spraying.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Not that the other is not the case. Organic farming is not allowed to use chemical solutions even they are better for the environment. edit: as others have pointed out, some chemicals are allowed. However the points remains, environmentally friendly means to control weeds is often not allowed in organic.
    - xipho 7y ago
      This is a common falacy. Organic forming can only use organic chemical solutions, some of which are far more toxic than their synthetic alternatives. Explore this idea by checking out strawberry production.
      - tracker1 7y ago
        Berries iirc are particularly sensitive to various pesticides, more so than a lot of other produce. It's one of the few products I will seek out Organic over not, when I have them.
    - chicob 7y ago
      One can use chemical solutions in Organic Farming, if these are organic, e.g. rotenone, insect-killing viruses, bacteria and fungi. In some rare cases, synthetic mineral solutions are allowed, like copper sulfate.
ptah 7y ago
I would say organic is closer to following the precautionary principle
- chicob 7y ago
  I would most certainly not say that. The precautionary principle lies within Integrated Farming, because it is highly adaptable. There are harmful insecticides being used in organic farming, and the avoidance of synthetic fungicides allows for higher levels of some dangerous fungal toxins in food. If a fungus-resistant GMO variety were available, organic farmers could then avoid the use of fungicides altogether. But GMOS are completely of of question in OF. Why? Because it is artificial, and that's the end of it.
jacksproit 7y ago
If organic is the best way to avoid glyphosphate it seems like a reasonable conclusion to me.
crdrost 7y ago
I think you don’t give yourself enough credit by calling it a “romantic ideal of purity;” it really does make a difference. A little pesticide is fine for cosmetic value: people buy more of the prettier fruits and veggies, great. But when you start to apply modern engineering to it, you get extremely powerful pesticides which are able to do something much more dangerous. The most talked-about example of what I am talking about is to consider that McDonald’s has uniform french fries throughout the US. They are able to do this because the potatoes that make the french fries are genetically identical; there is exactly one McDonald’s French Fry Potato plant. As a consequence we are freezing the evolution of part of our food supply while the pests continue to evolve to be better and better at eating those bits. The absolute precondition to do this is that human engineering clears out the pests with advanced pesticides, so that the plants don’t need evolution to stand on their own. And that is really dangerous as it pits human wits against the laws of nature for the long-term. This is also another reason why that label of “organic” is somewhat wrong. It labels whether something happened in the production of some produce. That is very helpful, say, in response to the OP’s article about avoiding a particular pesticide for health reasons. But it doesn’t say anything about doing the historical deeds of farming where you take your best performers and plant them again for the future: and, worse, there’s a “security vulnerability” here where I can deliver a bunch of organic produce but not support evolution. I can just plant the same crop, look for signs of pests, douse only those fields with advanced pesticides, and the other fields get delivered “organic” even though their survival had only to do with random chance in how they were cultivated, not whether they were tougher in the presence of (weakened) pests. Thanks for coming here and arguing for Integrated Farming... are there any certifications we can look for that indicate this? (I am under the understanding that anyone can call something "integrated" and it's all on the honor system.)
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  > McDonald’s French Fry Potato plant I'd love to see any info you have on that, because I'm not seeing anything at all. My Google Fu may be weak, but all I find is that McDonalds continues to deny using GMO potatoes. Also, anecdotally, McDonalds french fries are far from all identical.
  - 7y ago
Ductapemaster 7y ago
I currently work at a business in the food industry and it was amazing to learn that there is a whole host of products that can be applied to organic produce and not affect it's organic rating. You can see the whole list here: https://www.omri.org/omri-lists/download https://www.omri.org/omri-lists/download Organic doesn't mean nothing is applied. It's just a different category of product that is approved.
tracker1 7y ago
Personally, I'd love to see "what they're fed" labels for eggs and dairy products. There are definitely different characteristics and nutritional value in the products from naturally fed animals and those feed product they would never eat in the wild. I mostly notice wrt soy fed chicken eggs and dairy myself, but can definitely tell the difference. Butter, and meat not as much beyond flavor.

by chicob 7y ago

manifestsilence 7y ago

Sure, I agree the organic standard is far from perfect and has many loopholes, but it's a starting point. If there were a standard out there that instead embraced a systems-thinking view on safe practices - both chemical use and general land management, emphasizing safety for the long term health of the ecosystem, the farm economy, and the humans consuming the product - I would embrace that standard instead. Even if it were (as it might be) initially quite expensive.

chicob 7y ago
Your second paragraph pretty much resumes what Integrated Farming is. That is exactly what I do. And everything you do in Organic Farming can be done in Integrated Farming - you only resort to chemical solutions if there are no other options left. And even then, only if you've gone beyond a certain point beyond which the damage will out-cost the benefits of the spraying.
- bluGill 7y ago
  Not that the other is not the case. Organic farming is not allowed to use chemical solutions even they are better for the environment. edit: as others have pointed out, some chemicals are allowed. However the points remains, environmentally friendly means to control weeds is often not allowed in organic.
  - xipho 7y ago
    This is a common falacy. Organic forming can only use organic chemical solutions, some of which are far more toxic than their synthetic alternatives. Explore this idea by checking out strawberry production.
    - tracker1 7y ago
      Berries iirc are particularly sensitive to various pesticides, more so than a lot of other produce. It's one of the few products I will seek out Organic over not, when I have them.
  - chicob 7y ago
    One can use chemical solutions in Organic Farming, if these are organic, e.g. rotenone, insect-killing viruses, bacteria and fungi. In some rare cases, synthetic mineral solutions are allowed, like copper sulfate.

ptah 7y ago

I would say organic is closer to following the precautionary principle

chicob 7y ago
I would most certainly not say that. The precautionary principle lies within Integrated Farming, because it is highly adaptable. There are harmful insecticides being used in organic farming, and the avoidance of synthetic fungicides allows for higher levels of some dangerous fungal toxins in food. If a fungus-resistant GMO variety were available, organic farmers could then avoid the use of fungicides altogether. But GMOS are completely of of question in OF. Why? Because it is artificial, and that's the end of it.

jacksproit 7y ago

If organic is the best way to avoid glyphosphate it seems like a reasonable conclusion to me.

crdrost 7y ago

I think you don’t give yourself enough credit by calling it a “romantic ideal of purity;” it really does make a difference. A little pesticide is fine for cosmetic value: people buy more of the prettier fruits and veggies, great. But when you start to apply modern engineering to it, you get extremely powerful pesticides which are able to do something much more dangerous. The most talked-about example of what I am talking about is to consider that McDonald’s has uniform french fries throughout the US. They are able to do this because the potatoes that make the french fries are genetically identical; there is exactly one McDonald’s French Fry Potato plant. As a consequence we are freezing the evolution of part of our food supply while the pests continue to evolve to be better and better at eating those bits. The absolute precondition to do this is that human engineering clears out the pests with advanced pesticides, so that the plants don’t need evolution to stand on their own. And that is really dangerous as it pits human wits against the laws of nature for the long-term. This is also another reason why that label of “organic” is somewhat wrong. It labels whether something happened in the production of some produce. That is very helpful, say, in response to the OP’s article about avoiding a particular pesticide for health reasons. But it doesn’t say anything about doing the historical deeds of farming where you take your best performers and plant them again for the future: and, worse, there’s a “security vulnerability” here where I can deliver a bunch of organic produce but not support evolution. I can just plant the same crop, look for signs of pests, douse only those fields with advanced pesticides, and the other fields get delivered “organic” even though their survival had only to do with random chance in how they were cultivated, not whether they were tougher in the presence of (weakened) pests. Thanks for coming here and arguing for Integrated Farming... are there any certifications we can look for that indicate this? (I am under the understanding that anyone can call something "integrated" and it's all on the honor system.)

rootusrootus 7y ago
> McDonald’s French Fry Potato plant I'd love to see any info you have on that, because I'm not seeing anything at all. My Google Fu may be weak, but all I find is that McDonalds continues to deny using GMO potatoes. Also, anecdotally, McDonalds french fries are far from all identical.
- 7y ago

Ductapemaster 7y ago

I currently work at a business in the food industry and it was amazing to learn that there is a whole host of products that can be applied to organic produce and not affect it's organic rating. You can see the whole list here: https://www.omri.org/omri-lists/download https://www.omri.org/omri-lists/download Organic doesn't mean nothing is applied. It's just a different category of product that is approved.

tracker1 7y ago

Personally, I'd love to see "what they're fed" labels for eggs and dairy products. There are definitely different characteristics and nutritional value in the products from naturally fed animals and those feed product they would never eat in the wild. I mostly notice wrt soy fed chicken eggs and dairy myself, but can definitely tell the difference. Butter, and meat not as much beyond flavor.