5 ms·

Is long-term solitary confinement torture?

46 points by 6ren 16y ago

maw 16y ago
Assertions such as those in the first paragraph are offensive -- as though we introverts weren't real or normal humans. I don't know from first-hand experience, but as bad as solitary sounds, being confined with other people sounds even worse, given how my brain is wired.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  I am an introvert myself, but even us introverts interact with other people daily. If you voluntarily spend days on end utterly alone with no human interaction, you're unusual even for an introvert
  - maw 16y ago
    Sure. But if it came down to lots of time alone or lots of time with forced contact, which would you pick? They both sound bad to me (what do you expect from being incarcerated?); the baked in assumption that what's bad for most humans is bad for all humans is what bothers me.
    - sliverstorm 16y ago
      the baked in assumption that what's bad for most humans is bad for all humans is what bothers me. The implication, or rather question here, is not about what one person likes vs. another person. We are all entitled to opinions, choices, etc., and we all have different ones. The article is discussing whether a total absence of social interaction is bad for humans not because we just don't like it, but because it is necessary and requisite for your brain to function & survive, the same way a total absence of water is bad for us. Would it be so bothersome if I suggested since a severe (aka total) lack of water is bad for most humans, it's bad for all humans?
    - rms 16y ago
      I think you're underestimating the power of sensory deprivation.
    - fossuser 16y ago
      Even this text based communication on HN is a form of human interaction. I'm not sure complete isolation is something anyone is genetically predisposed to prefer.
      - j_baker 16y ago
        Not really relevant to your point, but introversion vs extraversion most likely isn't determined by genetic factors. It's essentially a choice (albeit one that was made at such a young age that it's impossible to change).
    - Qz 16y ago
      If by 'baked in assumption' you mean 'documented scientific research' then I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
    - j_baker 16y ago
      "But if it came down to lots of time alone or lots of time with forced contact, which would you pick?" As terrible as prison is, almost no one actually prefers solitary confinement (introverts included). It's easy to say that you can handle solitary confinement until you end up spending practically 24 hours a day alone (23 of which are in one tiny room) for even a month or so.
- drdo 16y ago
  Why do you have to make this about you? That was just a general statement about how the vast majority of people is. If everyone reacted like you, we could never make a statement about anything since there's always an exception to anything one might say. It's analogous to me being offended if someone says dogs have 4 legs because my dog was born with only 3.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
Andys 16y ago
I think its unfair if you're being held without charge or trial. If you've been sentenced, it might be cruel punishment or even torture but at least you can accept your fate.
Kudose 16y ago
Forced seclusion on any being that naturally seeks contact alters the mind and is therefore a form of torture.
- smallblacksun 16y ago
  What an idiotic statement All forms of punishment and/or rehabilitation "alters the mind", they are not all forms of torture.
jellicle 16y ago
If it wasn't torture, the United States wouldn't be doing it to Bradley Manning.
- alanh 16y ago
  I love this kind of fallacy :) Edit: Misread the parent post (too many negatives!).
  - zoomzoom 16y ago
    What fallacy?
salemh 16y ago
I have personal experience with interacting with those in / coming out (temporarily (going out for court) and permanently (being transported to a new facility after 7+ years of Solitary Confinement)) on solitary confinement. We ARE social creatures. We cannot survive on our own (I hypothesize we need Friends, Family and Lovers...if you have Two, you can survive emotionally). These people are turned into schizophrenics, tattooing their faces, painting walls with feces (if you are offended, please research the effects of solitary confinement). Solitary confinement inmates go Insane. To what degree, depends on the duration and the person. As a deterrent, it is warranted and probably (no statistical info) effective in the short term. As a long-term "treatment" for rehabilitation, it is NOT effective. If we are in fact, trying, to rehabilitate criminals into society, solitary confinement just creates a dangerous creature.
- rdtsc 16y ago
  > If we are in fact, trying, to rehabilitate criminals into society Apart from superficial lip service I don't think we are trying to rehabilitate anyone. It is plain and simple punishment.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
drewse 16y ago
This was very well-written and brings up a lot of important issues. I didn't realize the full importance of this Hacker News submission, as the article was written over a year ago, until I saw an article about Bradley Manning. http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning/index.html http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14... The current prison system definitely needs reform, and it's my opinion that the first step should be to make more people aware of what currently goes on in prisons today. This article did a good job of doing that. Until it becomes the opinion of the general public that solitary confinement is morally wrong, reform is going to be especially challenging. In addition to solitary confinement, prisons face other problems such as having their guards playing their roles at extreme levels, often resulting in oppression. The Stanford Prison Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment) is a great example of that.
wwortiz 16y ago
Some of Harry Harlow's experiments were really... fucked up. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Pit_of_despair https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Pit_of_despai...
- 6ren 16y ago
  > when six-month isolates were exposed to younger, three-month-old monkeys, they achieved "essentially complete social recovery for all situations tested." https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Harry_Harlow#Partial_and_total_isolation_of_infant_monkeys https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Harry_Harlow#...

46 points by 6ren 16y ago

maw 16y ago

Assertions such as those in the first paragraph are offensive -- as though we introverts weren't real or normal humans. I don't know from first-hand experience, but as bad as solitary sounds, being confined with other people sounds even worse, given how my brain is wired.

sliverstorm 16y ago
I am an introvert myself, but even us introverts interact with other people daily. If you voluntarily spend days on end utterly alone with no human interaction, you're unusual even for an introvert
- maw 16y ago
  Sure. But if it came down to lots of time alone or lots of time with forced contact, which would you pick? They both sound bad to me (what do you expect from being incarcerated?); the baked in assumption that what's bad for most humans is bad for all humans is what bothers me.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    the baked in assumption that what's bad for most humans is bad for all humans is what bothers me. The implication, or rather question here, is not about what one person likes vs. another person. We are all entitled to opinions, choices, etc., and we all have different ones. The article is discussing whether a total absence of social interaction is bad for humans not because we just don't like it, but because it is necessary and requisite for your brain to function & survive, the same way a total absence of water is bad for us. Would it be so bothersome if I suggested since a severe (aka total) lack of water is bad for most humans, it's bad for all humans?
  - rms 16y ago
    I think you're underestimating the power of sensory deprivation.
  - fossuser 16y ago
    Even this text based communication on HN is a form of human interaction. I'm not sure complete isolation is something anyone is genetically predisposed to prefer.
    - j_baker 16y ago
      Not really relevant to your point, but introversion vs extraversion most likely isn't determined by genetic factors. It's essentially a choice (albeit one that was made at such a young age that it's impossible to change).
  - Qz 16y ago
    If by 'baked in assumption' you mean 'documented scientific research' then I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
  - j_baker 16y ago
    "But if it came down to lots of time alone or lots of time with forced contact, which would you pick?" As terrible as prison is, almost no one actually prefers solitary confinement (introverts included). It's easy to say that you can handle solitary confinement until you end up spending practically 24 hours a day alone (23 of which are in one tiny room) for even a month or so.
drdo 16y ago
Why do you have to make this about you? That was just a general statement about how the vast majority of people is. If everyone reacted like you, we could never make a statement about anything since there's always an exception to anything one might say. It's analogous to me being offended if someone says dogs have 4 legs because my dog was born with only 3.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

Andys 16y ago

I think its unfair if you're being held without charge or trial. If you've been sentenced, it might be cruel punishment or even torture but at least you can accept your fate.

Kudose 16y ago

Forced seclusion on any being that naturally seeks contact alters the mind and is therefore a form of torture.

smallblacksun 16y ago
What an idiotic statement All forms of punishment and/or rehabilitation "alters the mind", they are not all forms of torture.

jellicle 16y ago

If it wasn't torture, the United States wouldn't be doing it to Bradley Manning.

alanh 16y ago
I love this kind of fallacy :) Edit: Misread the parent post (too many negatives!).
- zoomzoom 16y ago
  What fallacy?

salemh 16y ago

I have personal experience with interacting with those in / coming out (temporarily (going out for court) and permanently (being transported to a new facility after 7+ years of Solitary Confinement)) on solitary confinement. We ARE social creatures. We cannot survive on our own (I hypothesize we need Friends, Family and Lovers...if you have Two, you can survive emotionally). These people are turned into schizophrenics, tattooing their faces, painting walls with feces (if you are offended, please research the effects of solitary confinement). Solitary confinement inmates go Insane. To what degree, depends on the duration and the person. As a deterrent, it is warranted and probably (no statistical info) effective in the short term. As a long-term "treatment" for rehabilitation, it is NOT effective. If we are in fact, trying, to rehabilitate criminals into society, solitary confinement just creates a dangerous creature.

rdtsc 16y ago
> If we are in fact, trying, to rehabilitate criminals into society Apart from superficial lip service I don't think we are trying to rehabilitate anyone. It is plain and simple punishment.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

drewse 16y ago

This was very well-written and brings up a lot of important issues. I didn't realize the full importance of this Hacker News submission, as the article was written over a year ago, until I saw an article about Bradley Manning. http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning/index.html http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14... The current prison system definitely needs reform, and it's my opinion that the first step should be to make more people aware of what currently goes on in prisons today. This article did a good job of doing that. Until it becomes the opinion of the general public that solitary confinement is morally wrong, reform is going to be especially challenging. In addition to solitary confinement, prisons face other problems such as having their guards playing their roles at extreme levels, often resulting in oppression. The Stanford Prison Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment) is a great example of that.

wwortiz 16y ago

Some of Harry Harlow's experiments were really... fucked up. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Pit_of_despair https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Pit_of_despai...

6ren 16y ago
> when six-month isolates were exposed to younger, three-month-old monkeys, they achieved "essentially complete social recovery for all situations tested." https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Harry_Harlow#Partial_and_total_isolation_of_infant_monkeys https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Harry_Harlow#...