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Unpopular opinion on HN - Majority regular net users don't care about tracking and the FF focus on privacy will not give them the browser landscape they are los

by rukshn 7y ago

Unpopular opinion on HN - Majority regular net users don't care about tracking and the FF focus on privacy will not give them the browser landscape they are losing daily. They should be focused on giving a better smooth UI, make it faster, remove unwanted extensions like pocket, make all the sites work. Let's see how valid this comment is in couple of years.

m45t3r 7y ago
Firefox is fast enough for most people, it has a UI as good as Chrome (that maybe is shit for some people, however most people don't care), most people don't care if Pocket is included or not (it is not like Firefox keeps nagging you to use it either). The only point I concur with you is that all sites should work, however the majority of times I see a site broken in Firefox is because of the developer not testing in other browsers and not a Firefox fault (it would be the same if the developer just develop on Firefox and didn't test on Chrome). Firefox is not as popular as Chrome thanks to the intense Google advertising some time ago. Even nowadays Google still advertises "this sites runs best on Chrome", kinda like Coca Cola still advertises its products even if they are already the leaders in the segment.
- rukshn 7y ago
  Why should the developers worry about a browser that is only covering 10% as I remember that is the cover ? Specially if you have a small team who has time and people to make multiple versions to run on different browsers? You can just put a banner saying this website works well on chrome. FF should be more active in making all the sites work on their browser.
  - sfink 7y ago
    > FF should be more active in making all the sites work on their browser. How? By matching any bugs or spec incompatibilities Chrome has that makes the site only work in Chrome? Or by begging the site authors to fix the HTML or CSS or JS? Because I don't see any other options. The first defeats the purpose of having an independent browser (or web standards). The second won't work -- or at least, its success is determined entirely by market share, not directly by what Mozilla does. I'm really not sure what you're asking for.
  - hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
    I guess it depends if you are a web developer or a Chrome developer... What Chrome only features are you possibly using that would mean a separate Firefox version?
  - krzyk 7y ago
    > You can just put a banner saying this website works well on chrome. Indeed Chrome is the new IE
  - feanaro 7y ago
    Or perhaps don't design your site with browser-specific features from the start? The web is interoperable by default.
victor9000 7y ago
They're using privacy to differentiate themselves from Chrome, which will be a sharp contrast once Google cripples adblocking. It seems to be the same move that Apple is pulling with their anonymous login functionality.
- rukshn 7y ago
  Firefox will not going to win with a focus on privacy. Period. It's like a privacy friendly social network can't beat Facebook. Unless Google does something extremely stupid people are going to stick to it. People use Gmail, YouTube, Docs,Google search, Android and all of them are in sync with chrome. It goes hand in hand with your life. Same is for Apple, they make iPhone they have mail they have macos. Everything sync with safari. Makes life easy. What does Firefox offer? Only a browser. And privacy is not going make people switch to them.
  - lenkite 7y ago
    Really ? There are dozens of ad-blockers both free and paid. If people were't bothered about privacy and bandwidth, these apps wouldn't exist at all.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    > People use Gmail, YouTube, Docs,Google search, Android and all of them are in sync with chrome. In what way are those sites in sync with Chrome? There's sync of tabs and such across devices, but Firefox has that too.
  - deadbunny 7y ago
    > Unless Google does something extremely stupid people are going to stick to it. Like removing APIs used for Ad blocking effectively crippling Ad blockers? > Everything sync with safari. Makes life easy. Firefox can send tabs between your devices, not sure if it can sync them in their entirety. Not sure i'd want it to though.
ken 7y ago
Agreed (except for those specific examples). User experience is the gateway drug. As long as the standard keyboard shortcuts and preferences panel don't work right in Firefox, it doesn't matter how fast or standards-compliant the HTML rendering engine is. Privacy is vegetables -- I know I should eat more, but I'm not going to go out of my way for it.
- matheussampaio 7y ago
  A lot of people eat vegetables tho.
- brigandish 7y ago
  How about "Privacy is vegetarianism" instead? Just 20 years ago I'd have trouble going out for a meal in London because there was maybe one (one!) dedicated veggie restaurant in the whole city and lots of places didn't even offer an option on their menu. Now, everywhere offers a vegetarian option, it's normal. What it took was dedication by fanatics* and to increase mindshare amongst the young. I'd venture that the same conditions would reap the same rewards with privacy. * that's a wee joke… or is it? :-)
Nursie 7y ago
> Majority regular net users don't care about tracking The majority of regular users don't know the extent to which they are being tracked, because they don't have a good grasp of the technology or a good idea of what's possible.
Vinnl 7y ago
> They should be focused on giving a better smooth UI, make it faster, remove unwanted extensions like pocket, make all the sites work. Those are all things which do not differentiate Firefox from Chrome. They're focusing on that as well, but Chrome will never be able to copy their privacy-enhancing features, because that's Google's business model.
roca 7y ago
Blocking tracking scripts (which is not being turned on by default (yet), but can be turned on by users) is an enormous performance boost because they really hurt page loads. That aside, as commenters everywhere will tell you, Mozilla has made huge performance improvements in Firefox over the last few years and continues to do so. It's not like Mozilla has decided to stop doing everything except privacy.
floatingatoll 7y ago
Regular people at the bar in my non-SF town can be overheard puzzling through the privacy issues that they’re hearing about these days. I’ve been asked how to avoid being tracked by creep stalkers now that it’s something people know to be conscious of - and helped them remove a tracking iOS profile after showing them how they wouldn’t have Settings > General > Profiles unless something creepy was up! So I think we’ve reached a phase where performance is good enough on any hardware for people to start worrying about the big picture problems like privacy and tracking as well. Not to the exclusion of performance - but it’s clearly become more important to random non-tech folks.
misrab 7y ago
I hear you, but that's why the greedy optimisation of convenience above all gradually leads to the local mininum of a Brave New World.

by rukshn 7y ago

m45t3r 7y ago

Firefox is fast enough for most people, it has a UI as good as Chrome (that maybe is shit for some people, however most people don't care), most people don't care if Pocket is included or not (it is not like Firefox keeps nagging you to use it either). The only point I concur with you is that all sites should work, however the majority of times I see a site broken in Firefox is because of the developer not testing in other browsers and not a Firefox fault (it would be the same if the developer just develop on Firefox and didn't test on Chrome). Firefox is not as popular as Chrome thanks to the intense Google advertising some time ago. Even nowadays Google still advertises "this sites runs best on Chrome", kinda like Coca Cola still advertises its products even if they are already the leaders in the segment.

rukshn 7y ago
Why should the developers worry about a browser that is only covering 10% as I remember that is the cover ? Specially if you have a small team who has time and people to make multiple versions to run on different browsers? You can just put a banner saying this website works well on chrome. FF should be more active in making all the sites work on their browser.
- sfink 7y ago
  > FF should be more active in making all the sites work on their browser. How? By matching any bugs or spec incompatibilities Chrome has that makes the site only work in Chrome? Or by begging the site authors to fix the HTML or CSS or JS? Because I don't see any other options. The first defeats the purpose of having an independent browser (or web standards). The second won't work -- or at least, its success is determined entirely by market share, not directly by what Mozilla does. I'm really not sure what you're asking for.
- hdfbdtbcdg 7y ago
  I guess it depends if you are a web developer or a Chrome developer... What Chrome only features are you possibly using that would mean a separate Firefox version?
- krzyk 7y ago
  > You can just put a banner saying this website works well on chrome. Indeed Chrome is the new IE
- feanaro 7y ago
  Or perhaps don't design your site with browser-specific features from the start? The web is interoperable by default.

victor9000 7y ago

They're using privacy to differentiate themselves from Chrome, which will be a sharp contrast once Google cripples adblocking. It seems to be the same move that Apple is pulling with their anonymous login functionality.

rukshn 7y ago
Firefox will not going to win with a focus on privacy. Period. It's like a privacy friendly social network can't beat Facebook. Unless Google does something extremely stupid people are going to stick to it. People use Gmail, YouTube, Docs,Google search, Android and all of them are in sync with chrome. It goes hand in hand with your life. Same is for Apple, they make iPhone they have mail they have macos. Everything sync with safari. Makes life easy. What does Firefox offer? Only a browser. And privacy is not going make people switch to them.
- lenkite 7y ago
  Really ? There are dozens of ad-blockers both free and paid. If people were't bothered about privacy and bandwidth, these apps wouldn't exist at all.
- icebraining 7y ago
  > People use Gmail, YouTube, Docs,Google search, Android and all of them are in sync with chrome. In what way are those sites in sync with Chrome? There's sync of tabs and such across devices, but Firefox has that too.
- deadbunny 7y ago
  > Unless Google does something extremely stupid people are going to stick to it. Like removing APIs used for Ad blocking effectively crippling Ad blockers? > Everything sync with safari. Makes life easy. Firefox can send tabs between your devices, not sure if it can sync them in their entirety. Not sure i'd want it to though.

ken 7y ago

Agreed (except for those specific examples). User experience is the gateway drug. As long as the standard keyboard shortcuts and preferences panel don't work right in Firefox, it doesn't matter how fast or standards-compliant the HTML rendering engine is. Privacy is vegetables -- I know I should eat more, but I'm not going to go out of my way for it.

matheussampaio 7y ago
A lot of people eat vegetables tho.
brigandish 7y ago
How about "Privacy is vegetarianism" instead? Just 20 years ago I'd have trouble going out for a meal in London because there was maybe one (one!) dedicated veggie restaurant in the whole city and lots of places didn't even offer an option on their menu. Now, everywhere offers a vegetarian option, it's normal. What it took was dedication by fanatics* and to increase mindshare amongst the young. I'd venture that the same conditions would reap the same rewards with privacy. * that's a wee joke… or is it? :-)

Nursie 7y ago

> Majority regular net users don't care about tracking The majority of regular users don't know the extent to which they are being tracked, because they don't have a good grasp of the technology or a good idea of what's possible.

Vinnl 7y ago

> They should be focused on giving a better smooth UI, make it faster, remove unwanted extensions like pocket, make all the sites work. Those are all things which do not differentiate Firefox from Chrome. They're focusing on that as well, but Chrome will never be able to copy their privacy-enhancing features, because that's Google's business model.

roca 7y ago

Blocking tracking scripts (which is not being turned on by default (yet), but can be turned on by users) is an enormous performance boost because they really hurt page loads. That aside, as commenters everywhere will tell you, Mozilla has made huge performance improvements in Firefox over the last few years and continues to do so. It's not like Mozilla has decided to stop doing everything except privacy.

floatingatoll 7y ago

Regular people at the bar in my non-SF town can be overheard puzzling through the privacy issues that they’re hearing about these days. I’ve been asked how to avoid being tracked by creep stalkers now that it’s something people know to be conscious of - and helped them remove a tracking iOS profile after showing them how they wouldn’t have Settings > General > Profiles unless something creepy was up! So I think we’ve reached a phase where performance is good enough on any hardware for people to start worrying about the big picture problems like privacy and tracking as well. Not to the exclusion of performance - but it’s clearly become more important to random non-tech folks.

misrab 7y ago

I hear you, but that's why the greedy optimisation of convenience above all gradually leads to the local mininum of a Brave New World.