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> Apple is going to leverage its monopoly position as app provider on the iPhone to force developers...to use Sign In With Apple. So, is Ben making the argumen

> Apple is going to leverage its monopoly position as app provider on the iPhone to force developers...to use Sign In With Apple. So, is Ben making the argument that the above is illegal? I don't see any difference to Apple "requiring" developers to use a new framework. He later says that even Android developers will be required to offer Sign In with Apple... but I don't see how that is possibly the case.

giobox 7y ago
I haven't read the mechanics of this fully yet, but the first obvious scenario I can foresee: 1. Customer signs up for service on iPhone with "Sign in With Apple". 2. Customer sells iPhone. 3. Customer buys Android phone. How does customer sign in and keep their same account on the new phone? For sure there might be other mitigation strategies (a web UI that allows account migration etc), but this decision absolutely has ramifications beyond just iOS users of apps using third party signin. Same is true of customers with devices in both ecosystems - Android phone and an iPad tablet, for example. If customer signs up on the iPad with "Sign in With Apple", how do they log in on the Android phone that only has the other third party login integrations? People are going to have to think this through, and Apple forcing it on all Apps using third party signin means they are going to have to think it through soon.
- Someone 7y ago
  ”How does customer sign in and keep their same account on the new phone?” I would guess by keeping their Apple ID. AFAIK, you don’t have to buy anything from Apple to get one. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204316 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204316: ”An Apple ID is the account you use to access Apple services like iCloud, the App Store, the iTunes Store, Apple Music, and more. It includes the email address and password that you use to sign in” https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204316#web https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204316#web: ”Use a web browser If you need to create an Apple ID on your device — including your Android device or Apple TV — you can usually follow the steps provided when you set up your device or Apple service for the first time”
  - giobox 7y ago
    And how do they login on the Android phone with the Apple ID with no changes to the Android app? That's the question OP didn't understand and which your reply completely ignores. While this is an iOS change, it will have effects beyond just iOS. I think most of us are fully aware an Apple ID survives even if you have no Apple devices without recourse to Apple help links.
    - keymone 7y ago
      Facebook doesn't control Android yet people are able to login using "Sign in with Facebook" button on Android phones.
      - giobox 7y ago
        Of course. But the "Sign in with Facebook" button didn't appear by magic on the Android app, did it? Someone had to add support to their app for it. This change may incur similar cost, as Apple are forcing Sign in with Apple on _any_ app submitted to the appstore with third party login support, which is a crazy number of apps. You have a "Sign in with Facebook" button on your iOS app today? Guess what, you have to add a "Sign in with Apple" button or you don't get to play on Apple's store. Many of these apps also ship on Android, and users will rightly expect the account they created on one device to work on another.
        basch 7y ago
        It would be foolish for a developer to add Sign in with Apple to their iOS app and not their Android app. If a developer did something so stupid its their fault, not Apples, for users not being able to sign in from Android devices.
        themanr 7y ago
        > But the "Sign in with Facebook" button didn't appear by magic on the Android app, did it? Someone had to add support to their app for it. It would be nice if you could add an identity provider to your OS and the app could ask the OS to identify you using your provider of choice for that application.
- 0x0 7y ago
  I'm having a hard time believing Apple hasn't considered the lock-in effect of Sign In With Apple to be just like the lock-in effect of iMessages.
  - gwd 7y ago
    One of the worst things that could happen to the Apple ecosystem would be for them to gain real dominance, either in phones or in the desktop / laptop space. Then all these "integrations" which are harmless / annoying nudges would suddenly become clear abuses of a monopoly position.
    - photojosh 7y ago
      I agree. But do you have a plausible scenario for how Apple will "gain real dominance"? I can't see it happening anytime soon.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  If iMessage group chats are any indication, you just lose your access to that identity. Notifications meant for it will silently fail to be delivered, and you will need to create a new identity outside of Apple’s ecosystem and inform any groups still using your old identity that you have a new one.
jonas21 7y ago
I think you may be misunderstanding what he's saying about Android. Here's what he wrote: > Apple is going to leverage its monopoly position as app provider on the iPhone to force developers (who use 3rd party solutions) to use Sign In With Apple. Keep in mind, that also means building Sign In With Apple into related websites, and even Android apps, at least if you want users to be able to login anywhere other than their iPhones. The developer will be required to support "Sign in with Apple" on the iPhone - otherwise Apple will reject your app. Once a user creates an account with "Sign in with Apple", the developer has a choice. They can either: 1. Exclusively support iOS, or 2. Add "Sign in with Apple" across all platforms they support. Both of these advantage Apple.
- r00fus 7y ago
  What's audacious is that Ben thinks Apple hasn't considered the antitrust implications of the above hypothetical. I really doubt they'd force developers to use Sign in with Apple, instead they'll just make it desired and profitable. My guess: this goes as far as Apple Pay app integration does now - some but not all apps, and in the least required.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    How is it in any more "audacious" for Apple to force apps to use Apple's authentication for their platform than it is for Amazon to force you to use an Amazon account to use their platform (retail and AWS), or the console makers to do the same?
  - jonas21 7y ago
    Apple is telling developers that Sign In with Apple will be required if you support Facebook, Google or any other third-party login: > Sign In with Apple will be available for beta testing this summer. It will be required as an option for users in apps that support third-party sign-in when it is commercially available later this year. https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=06032019j https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=06032019j
  - hobofan 7y ago
    > What's audacious is that Ben thinks Apple hasn't considered the antitrust implications of the above hypothetical. Why not try it? Worst case they have to loosen requirements, and have to pay a tiny fraction of their cash reserves as a fine. Antitrust hast lost its teeth a long time ago. So there is a potential huge reward with low risk. Not saying that that's moral and should be done, but that seems to be the sad status quo.

giobox 7y ago

I haven't read the mechanics of this fully yet, but the first obvious scenario I can foresee: 1. Customer signs up for service on iPhone with "Sign in With Apple". 2. Customer sells iPhone. 3. Customer buys Android phone. How does customer sign in and keep their same account on the new phone? For sure there might be other mitigation strategies (a web UI that allows account migration etc), but this decision absolutely has ramifications beyond just iOS users of apps using third party signin. Same is true of customers with devices in both ecosystems - Android phone and an iPad tablet, for example. If customer signs up on the iPad with "Sign in With Apple", how do they log in on the Android phone that only has the other third party login integrations? People are going to have to think this through, and Apple forcing it on all Apps using third party signin means they are going to have to think it through soon.

Someone 7y ago
”How does customer sign in and keep their same account on the new phone?” I would guess by keeping their Apple ID. AFAIK, you don’t have to buy anything from Apple to get one. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204316 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204316: ”An Apple ID is the account you use to access Apple services like iCloud, the App Store, the iTunes Store, Apple Music, and more. It includes the email address and password that you use to sign in” https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204316#web https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204316#web: ”Use a web browser If you need to create an Apple ID on your device — including your Android device or Apple TV — you can usually follow the steps provided when you set up your device or Apple service for the first time”
- giobox 7y ago
  And how do they login on the Android phone with the Apple ID with no changes to the Android app? That's the question OP didn't understand and which your reply completely ignores. While this is an iOS change, it will have effects beyond just iOS. I think most of us are fully aware an Apple ID survives even if you have no Apple devices without recourse to Apple help links.
  - keymone 7y ago
    Facebook doesn't control Android yet people are able to login using "Sign in with Facebook" button on Android phones.
    - giobox 7y ago
      Of course. But the "Sign in with Facebook" button didn't appear by magic on the Android app, did it? Someone had to add support to their app for it. This change may incur similar cost, as Apple are forcing Sign in with Apple on _any_ app submitted to the appstore with third party login support, which is a crazy number of apps. You have a "Sign in with Facebook" button on your iOS app today? Guess what, you have to add a "Sign in with Apple" button or you don't get to play on Apple's store. Many of these apps also ship on Android, and users will rightly expect the account they created on one device to work on another.
      - basch 7y ago
        It would be foolish for a developer to add Sign in with Apple to their iOS app and not their Android app. If a developer did something so stupid its their fault, not Apples, for users not being able to sign in from Android devices.
      - themanr 7y ago
        > But the "Sign in with Facebook" button didn't appear by magic on the Android app, did it? Someone had to add support to their app for it. It would be nice if you could add an identity provider to your OS and the app could ask the OS to identify you using your provider of choice for that application.
0x0 7y ago
I'm having a hard time believing Apple hasn't considered the lock-in effect of Sign In With Apple to be just like the lock-in effect of iMessages.
- gwd 7y ago
  One of the worst things that could happen to the Apple ecosystem would be for them to gain real dominance, either in phones or in the desktop / laptop space. Then all these "integrations" which are harmless / annoying nudges would suddenly become clear abuses of a monopoly position.
  - photojosh 7y ago
    I agree. But do you have a plausible scenario for how Apple will "gain real dominance"? I can't see it happening anytime soon.
erikpukinskis 7y ago
If iMessage group chats are any indication, you just lose your access to that identity. Notifications meant for it will silently fail to be delivered, and you will need to create a new identity outside of Apple’s ecosystem and inform any groups still using your old identity that you have a new one.

jonas21 7y ago

I think you may be misunderstanding what he's saying about Android. Here's what he wrote: > Apple is going to leverage its monopoly position as app provider on the iPhone to force developers (who use 3rd party solutions) to use Sign In With Apple. Keep in mind, that also means building Sign In With Apple into related websites, and even Android apps, at least if you want users to be able to login anywhere other than their iPhones. The developer will be required to support "Sign in with Apple" on the iPhone - otherwise Apple will reject your app. Once a user creates an account with "Sign in with Apple", the developer has a choice. They can either: 1. Exclusively support iOS, or 2. Add "Sign in with Apple" across all platforms they support. Both of these advantage Apple.

r00fus 7y ago
What's audacious is that Ben thinks Apple hasn't considered the antitrust implications of the above hypothetical. I really doubt they'd force developers to use Sign in with Apple, instead they'll just make it desired and profitable. My guess: this goes as far as Apple Pay app integration does now - some but not all apps, and in the least required.
- scarface74 7y ago
  How is it in any more "audacious" for Apple to force apps to use Apple's authentication for their platform than it is for Amazon to force you to use an Amazon account to use their platform (retail and AWS), or the console makers to do the same?
- jonas21 7y ago
  Apple is telling developers that Sign In with Apple will be required if you support Facebook, Google or any other third-party login: > Sign In with Apple will be available for beta testing this summer. It will be required as an option for users in apps that support third-party sign-in when it is commercially available later this year. https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=06032019j https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=06032019j
- hobofan 7y ago
  > What's audacious is that Ben thinks Apple hasn't considered the antitrust implications of the above hypothetical. Why not try it? Worst case they have to loosen requirements, and have to pay a tiny fraction of their cash reserves as a fine. Antitrust hast lost its teeth a long time ago. So there is a potential huge reward with low risk. Not saying that that's moral and should be done, but that seems to be the sad status quo.