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> They choose to work for evil that's quite an extreme view. Have you ever considered you might be mistaken?

by mjfl 7y ago

Frondo 7y ago
I agree with the parent poster, and yes, I consider all the time whether I'm mistaken. I can't even shut off the part of my brain that double-checks and questions my thoughts and views, on Facebook or anything else. Do you want to try to make a case for Facebook being good or even benign, or did you just want to check in if we're conducting regular introspection? (And, off the top of my head, the things Facebook does that nudge it into "evil": persuading media to move to video by lying about viewership statistics, gaming the algorithms to maximize engagement in the style of a Skinner box, in at least one case intentionally trying to depress people through feed manipulation, turning a blind eye to electoral interference, all the dark patterns surrounding getting people's personal information, the shady ways they share that information, and if I sat here and literally thought about it instead of producing a list as I typed it out, I'd come up with more. This is not what a good or benign corporation does. Doing these things is not compatible with being good or benign.)
randolando 7y ago
Have you?
malloreon 7y ago
about whether facebook is evil? Not in the last decade, and I have a hunch most addicted users agree. It's been years since I've even seen a pro-facebook take on HN, let alone anywhere else. Most people echo something similar to "I don't like it, but everyone else is there, and I don't want to feel left out."
- mjfl 7y ago
  I just think words like "evil" and "addiction" are a little histrionic. No one has physical withdrawal symptoms when they've been away from Facebook for a week. At some point, personal responsibility has to come into play. Otherwise, how could any form of advertising be legal?
  - skinnymuch 7y ago
    Personal responsibility should come in, but a middle ground can be seen probably of responsibility on both sides. Nothing as close to as truly addictive things like some drugs and cigarettes. Or even substances like alcohol. Either way in support of what you’re saying and in reference to the words — what evidence or rational is there that most people psychologically addicted to FB think it is evil? Replace FB overall with IG. IG is hugely popular. Some are prob addicted. IG doesn’t have the same negativity assigned to it so saying most addicted users think it’s evil would seem like a very silly statement.
  - freeopinion 7y ago
    It is true that a crack addict is personally responsible for their situation. But that doesn't make the dealer, the distrubutor, or the producer less evil. Edit: this is not to argue that FB is an addiction or that FB is evil or that FB is equivalent to cocaine. It is just to point out the weakness of the parent comment.
    - mjfl 7y ago
      You say that you're not trying to say that Facebook is equivalent to cocaine, but your logic doesn’t work unless it is.
  - scottlocklin 7y ago
    Hey man, oxycontin was prescribed by doctors; how can we possibly blame the Sackler family? FB employees: pretty close to Purdue pharma and the tobacco companies. At least tobacco prevents Parkinsons. I know, people got kids to feed and ex-wives to pay off, but FB is complete and utter garbage, and anyone who ever worked there carries a badge of shame forever.
- skinnymuch 7y ago
  You’re not looking then. There have been pro FB comments before. It’s also telling of only looking at your bubble. I highly doubt most addicted users think FB is evil. That’s a strong word. Regardless, people being pro some company is not a good way at all to see if a company is “evil” or not. Many times people being pro something can be a negatives indicator. We have seen various tech companies do bad things. Like the anti-poaching collusion so many participated in. But at that time Google was given near unanimous praise and pro-comments.
- DisruptiveDave 7y ago
  "Facebook is evil" is a hell of a lot easier than "we should be responsible for what we feed ourselves" isn't it?
- OJFord 7y ago
  > It's been years since I've even seen a pro-facebook take on HN, let alone anywhere else. 'let alone' anywhere else? HN is surely skewed toward privacy-conscious types that are inherently not 'pro-Facebook.'
markovbot 7y ago
Are you proposing that Facebook employees didn't choose to work for Facebook? Or what?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bongobongo 7y ago
The fact that you don't agree with it doesn't make it "extreme." It's actually not an uncommon view to consider Facebook to be bad. It's pretty bad when even a significant portion of your user base only uses your product begrudgingly and with resentment.
- grahamburger 7y ago
  > It's pretty bad when even a significant portion of your user base only uses your product begrudgingly and with resentment. That describes a _lot_ of companies and organizations (probably the majority of all organizations, I would guess?) most of which I would not consider evil. The DMV, for example. I would agree with calling them 'pretty bad', but pretty bad isn't the same as evil.
  - bongobongo 7y ago
    The reasons why people don't like the DMV and the reasons why people don't like Facebook could not be more different, but sure, whatever.
    - dang 7y ago
      Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or uncivil comments to HN, so we don't have to ban you again? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> They choose to work for evil that's quite an extreme view. Have you ever considered you might be mistaken?

by mjfl 7y ago

> They choose to work for evil that's quite an extreme view. Have you ever considered you might be mistaken?

I agree with the parent poster, and yes, I consider all the time whether I'm mistaken. I can't even shut off the part of my brain that double-checks and questions my thoughts and views, on Facebook or anything else. Do you want to try to make a case for Facebook being good or even benign, or did you just want to check in if we're conducting regular introspection? (And, off the top of my head, the things Facebook does that nudge it into "evil": persuading media to move to video by lying about viewership statistics, gaming the algorithms to maximize engagement in the style of a Skinner box, in at least one case intentionally trying to depress people through feed manipulation, turning a blind eye to electoral interference, all the dark patterns surrounding getting people's personal information, the shady ways they share that information, and if I sat here and literally thought about it instead of producing a list as I typed it out, I'd come up with more. This is not what a good or benign corporation does. Doing these things is not compatible with being good or benign.)

randolando 7y ago

Have you?

malloreon 7y ago

about whether facebook is evil? Not in the last decade, and I have a hunch most addicted users agree. It's been years since I've even seen a pro-facebook take on HN, let alone anywhere else. Most people echo something similar to "I don't like it, but everyone else is there, and I don't want to feel left out."

mjfl 7y ago
I just think words like "evil" and "addiction" are a little histrionic. No one has physical withdrawal symptoms when they've been away from Facebook for a week. At some point, personal responsibility has to come into play. Otherwise, how could any form of advertising be legal?
- skinnymuch 7y ago
  Personal responsibility should come in, but a middle ground can be seen probably of responsibility on both sides. Nothing as close to as truly addictive things like some drugs and cigarettes. Or even substances like alcohol. Either way in support of what you’re saying and in reference to the words — what evidence or rational is there that most people psychologically addicted to FB think it is evil? Replace FB overall with IG. IG is hugely popular. Some are prob addicted. IG doesn’t have the same negativity assigned to it so saying most addicted users think it’s evil would seem like a very silly statement.
- freeopinion 7y ago
  It is true that a crack addict is personally responsible for their situation. But that doesn't make the dealer, the distrubutor, or the producer less evil. Edit: this is not to argue that FB is an addiction or that FB is evil or that FB is equivalent to cocaine. It is just to point out the weakness of the parent comment.
  - mjfl 7y ago
    You say that you're not trying to say that Facebook is equivalent to cocaine, but your logic doesn’t work unless it is.
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  Hey man, oxycontin was prescribed by doctors; how can we possibly blame the Sackler family? FB employees: pretty close to Purdue pharma and the tobacco companies. At least tobacco prevents Parkinsons. I know, people got kids to feed and ex-wives to pay off, but FB is complete and utter garbage, and anyone who ever worked there carries a badge of shame forever.
skinnymuch 7y ago
You’re not looking then. There have been pro FB comments before. It’s also telling of only looking at your bubble. I highly doubt most addicted users think FB is evil. That’s a strong word. Regardless, people being pro some company is not a good way at all to see if a company is “evil” or not. Many times people being pro something can be a negatives indicator. We have seen various tech companies do bad things. Like the anti-poaching collusion so many participated in. But at that time Google was given near unanimous praise and pro-comments.
DisruptiveDave 7y ago
"Facebook is evil" is a hell of a lot easier than "we should be responsible for what we feed ourselves" isn't it?
OJFord 7y ago
> It's been years since I've even seen a pro-facebook take on HN, let alone anywhere else. 'let alone' anywhere else? HN is surely skewed toward privacy-conscious types that are inherently not 'pro-Facebook.'

markovbot 7y ago

Are you proposing that Facebook employees didn't choose to work for Facebook? Or what?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

bongobongo 7y ago

The fact that you don't agree with it doesn't make it "extreme." It's actually not an uncommon view to consider Facebook to be bad. It's pretty bad when even a significant portion of your user base only uses your product begrudgingly and with resentment.

grahamburger 7y ago
> It's pretty bad when even a significant portion of your user base only uses your product begrudgingly and with resentment. That describes a _lot_ of companies and organizations (probably the majority of all organizations, I would guess?) most of which I would not consider evil. The DMV, for example. I would agree with calling them 'pretty bad', but pretty bad isn't the same as evil.
- bongobongo 7y ago
  The reasons why people don't like the DMV and the reasons why people don't like Facebook could not be more different, but sure, whatever.
  - dang 7y ago
    Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or uncivil comments to HN, so we don't have to ban you again? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html