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Had a quick skim; it seems at a glance like someone from TorGuard badmouthed NordVPN on a youtube comment (sigh), so NordVPN apparently in response threatened t

Had a quick skim; it seems at a glance like someone from TorGuard badmouthed NordVPN on a youtube comment (sigh), so NordVPN apparently in response threatened to disclose "trade secret information obtained by NordVPN regarding TorGuard’s systems" it obtained via a hosting provider TorGuard used which is owned by the NordVPN people. This apparently involved some pretty sketchy stuff like sending people to the house of a TG employee to intimidate them. Whoops. What kind of 'trade secret information' could a vpn provider be blackmailed with though? What kind of information could you gleam as the owner of a 'service provider' for such a use? I'm suffering from an apparent lack of imagination here. Either way, this looks pretty messy and as a NordVPN user, I'm surprised how amateurish this all seems.

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cyberpunk 7y ago
Reading the parent pdf vs Nord's response [0] I'm slightly more inclined to believe Nords version of events here... 0: https://nordvpn.com/blog/torguard-lawsuit/ https://nordvpn.com/blog/torguard-lawsuit/
- rasengan 7y ago
  NordVPN is good at spinning stories, but quite frankly they have been caught in too many lies to ever trust again [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18609655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18609655
  - deleted 7y ago
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  - fao_ 7y ago
    If you take two seconds to read the responses to that link, the claims made in the post are almost entirely baseless.
    - BanazirGalbasi 7y ago
      The OP here is a co-founder of PIA, and IIRC he was behind a lot of the ProtonVPN and NordVPN controversy that is being cited in the link he provided. So basically, he's providing proof that he created a year ago.
      - krn 7y ago
        > So basically, he's providing proof that he created a year ago. I was able fact-check his claims, since I am from the city where Tesonet is based, and found none of them to be completely false or baseless. It turned out to be an open secret in the local tech community[1]. [1] https://i0.wp.com/vpnscam.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-08-24-09_09_14-Window.png https://i0.wp.com/vpnscam.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/201...
        BanazirGalbasi 7y ago
        From what I remember, that PDF was also created by the same guy and shared on several sites. ProtonVPN at least came forward with a chain of evidence for why there would be a connection, even a weak one, but I don't recall NordVPN saying much at the time. Still, the fact that the co-founder of a VPN company is trying to dig up dirt on other VPN companies doesn't make me trust his at all, it just seems shady.
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        krn 7y ago
        > Still, the fact that the co-founder of a VPN company is trying to dig up dirt on other VPN companies doesn't make me trust his at all, it just seems shady. I think it's a normal practice in every industry to try to find out who your competitors really are. Whether that information should be made public or not is a different question, but it doesn't make it inherently false. Instead of naively believing in carefully crafted rebuttals, people should try to verify the facts by themselves.
- chrismeller 7y ago
  Their response is certainly better written and does have something about the ring of truth to it. Even taking into account the insanity of legalese that lawsuit was... wordy, at best. Poorly organized and repetitive would also apply.
- penagwin 7y ago
  I'm not sure, their response could be fabricated too. I'm interested in if Torguard has any evidence of them physically approaching their employee. > Within an hour of this in-person and unannounced visit, the same TorGuard contractor received unsolicited correspondence from an employee at NordVPN. This correspondence stated that NordVPN had received certain of TorGuard’s confidential and trade secret information and requested to set up an instant message chat to discuss this with TorGuard. Also, according to both parties they communicated with each other with evidence. So all either party has to do to claim their innocence is submit the emails/communications they claimed to have. --- The DDOS part I'm very weary about. What evidence does torguard have that NordVPN was the one carrying out the DDOS attacks? I'll admit I haven't thoroughly examined the entire document, but they don't really seem to state how they know NordVPN was behind the attacks, they just list the dates they were attacked. Given the nature of DDOS attacks, they could be from anyone.
  - ganoushoreilly 7y ago
    What if I told you that a lot of these "VPN providers" were shell companies built to explicitly facilitate access and tools for crime / espionage with the premise of having users there as cover.
    - walrus01 7y ago
      Not something that many HN posters will be familiar with, but if you're a holder of significant pieces of ARIN or RIPE IP space, you'll inevitably be approached by a number of suspicious looking companies that want to "rent" your ipv4 space (by the /24 block) for VPN/proxy usage. The end result if you actually fall for their bullshit is that your IP space will be listed in every RBL until the end of time, and will have a bottom 5% rank in every IP space reputation/antifraud system until the heat death of the universe. Every time I've been approached by these clowns, I've spent a cursory 3 to 5 minutes trying to find an actual business behind it (names of real humans, street address that isn't just a mailbox, location of real ISP infrastructure equipment at some real IX points) and failed to find anything resembling a legitimate ISP.
- ghostwalking 7y ago
  The NordVPN blog post leaves me with many questions. 1) Someone supposedly "gave" them the URL. They do not state how they found it, or how it was related to TorGuard. So who gave it to them? The Collective 7 hosting company? It appears Collective 7 was selling "Residential Solutions for VPN Providers": http://web.archive.org/web/20171215024207/http://collectiveseven.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20171215024207/http://collectives... 2) Did they ask TorGuard to censor Youtuber "Tom spark reviews"? It seems he is critical of them: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJWKuGh0qedrYviGEJmlWw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJWKuGh0qedrYviGEJmlWw Tom Spark was also doxxed by the ProtonMail Reddit rep for posting videos they did not like: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/96m5vc/is_it_true_what_they_say/e42jtiw/?st=jlqyxphi&sh=5e77824e https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/96m5vc/is_it_tru... Found the link here: https://medium.com/@gaetanosabin/did-nordvpn-and-protonmail-violate-gdpr-and-us-privacy-laws-by-doxing-vpn-affiliate-2fe7b0d51d1f https://medium.com/@gaetanosabin/did-nordvpn-and-protonmail-... So it doesn't surprise me that NordVPN (Proton) wants this Youtube Streamer's videos and blog taken down. Shouldn't NordVPN and Proton uphold user privacy and fight against internet censorship? They are doing the exact opposite here and that is very troubling.
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- zelon88 7y ago
  But how did NordVPN find a vulnerability in their trash-talking competition in the first place? What were they poking at and whey were they poking it?
  - Tomspark 7y ago
    Exactly...
- dontbenebby 7y ago
  I always was a little sketched out by Torguard... much like how Wikileaks piggybacked on Wikipedia, the fact they put "Tor" in their name despite not being affiliated with Tor squicked me out a bit.
  - larkeith 7y ago
    Note that Wikileaks was originally a wiki, though the name may have also intentionally echoed Wikimedia projects.
  - dwater 7y ago
    https://torguard.net/faq.php https://torguard.net/faq.php Is TorGuard related in any way to the “tor” project? Answer: No, The reference to "tor" in TorGuard relates to "torrents" and guarding one’s privacy when using bitorrent. We are not related in any way to the “tor” project however the company does support through donations.
    - dontbenebby 7y ago
      Burying an entry in a FAQ does not change the fact people may not read said FAQ. Tor predates Torguard. It's perfectly possible people may be misled, especially since both are "privacy tools"
- Lowkeyloki 7y ago
  Nobody comes off looking particularly good here. If these corporations are going to act like grade schoolers calling each other names on the playground, I'm inclined to not use either of them. I used NordVPN for about a year a couple of years ago and I found their quality of service unsatisfactory. I've been using ProtonVPN for about a year now and I've been very satisfied. But that's just my personal experience and YMMV.
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penagwin 7y ago
> On or about May 17, 2019 an unknown individual appeared unannounced at the personal residence of a TorGuard contractor, asking to speak with him about his relationship with TorGuard and the VPN industry This whole thing sounds sketchy AF for NordVPN. While not technically illegal, just approaching a competitor's employee unsolicited at their home (!?) has red flags all over the place.
- vectorEQ 7y ago
  mind you telling about some privacy company that they have 'trade secrets' which should be exposed is a low blow under the belt... if you have some critical information for its users privacy, then share it... (being privacy advocates and a VPN service themselves.. it would be responsible.) with that in mind, it just sounds like someone with bad temper with too much responsibilities as usually these things turn out to be...
  - slenk 7y ago
    They never mentioned that the secrets revolved around user's privacy
jacquesm 7y ago
> What kind of 'trade secret information' could a vpn provider be blackmailed with though? That's easy. A VPN provider has access to all kinds of juicy information, such as who their customers are and what they are up to online. They may have been compromised already, they may sell user data. There are all kinds of things that could be going on that would definitely be stuff they could be blackmailed with. Whether any of that is the case remains to be seen.
- Liquix 7y ago
  They have definitely been compromised. You can buy lifetime accounts on the darknet for a dime a dozen with suspiciously not-real-person email addresses and passwords. Other VPN services and accounts for sale are much more expensive and you can usually tell at a glance that the credentials were stolen from a real user. Edit: Perhaps the unimpeded sale of these "hacked" accounts leads indirectly/directly back to someone inside NordVPN? A dirty "trade secret" they wouldn't want revealed..? Seems farfetched but they have not proven themselves trustworthy in the past.
xfitm3 7y ago
It’s not uncommon for ISPs to voluntarily tap and sell traffic data to government agencies - perhaps this is another case of that.
ghostwalking 7y ago
> What kind of 'trade secret information' could a vpn provider be blackmailed with though? According to TorGuard's blog post they stole information from an install script that was allegedly used at C7 hosting: https://torguard.net/blog/when-bug-bounties-border-on-blackmail/ https://torguard.net/blog/when-bug-bounties-border-on-blackm... An installer script could easily give an attacker insight into internal TorGuard IP addresses that would otherwise be hidden. My guess is these internal IP addresses from whatever was stolen were targeted with DDOS.
SturmUndDrang 7y ago
> What kind of information could you gleam as the owner of a 'service provider' for such a use? They could find internal targets for DDOS to disrupt the competing VPN service so users get kicked off or can't login. If you can't use what you paid for most would ask to cancel. Ddos attacks like this occur in any competitive space, but what bothers me here is the hosting company Collective seven appears to have betrayed a client's trust for competitive gain. With such dishonest practices by hosting providers these days it makes me wonder what is really going on.
matchcases 7y ago
How come everyone seems to ignore a fact where torguards server config file was floating around on the internet? I just can't wrap my head about that. Is this lawsuit really an attempt to intimidate nord, so they don't disclose this vulnerability publicly? Wouldn't surprise me if so.
Tomspark 7y ago
It's not a YouTube comment. It's my entire channel. They want me to remove NordVPN videos like this one: https://youtu.be/xxwvAjmNec8 https://youtu.be/xxwvAjmNec8
- cyberpunk 7y ago
  The plot thickens.. I mean... How are you involved? Why would NordVPN allegedly blackmail TorGuard to get you to stop posting negative things? What leverage does TorGuard have over you?
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cyberpunk 7y ago

Reading the parent pdf vs Nord's response [0] I'm slightly more inclined to believe Nords version of events here... 0: https://nordvpn.com/blog/torguard-lawsuit/ https://nordvpn.com/blog/torguard-lawsuit/

rasengan 7y ago
NordVPN is good at spinning stories, but quite frankly they have been caught in too many lies to ever trust again [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18609655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18609655
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- fao_ 7y ago
  If you take two seconds to read the responses to that link, the claims made in the post are almost entirely baseless.
  - BanazirGalbasi 7y ago
    The OP here is a co-founder of PIA, and IIRC he was behind a lot of the ProtonVPN and NordVPN controversy that is being cited in the link he provided. So basically, he's providing proof that he created a year ago.
    - krn 7y ago
      > So basically, he's providing proof that he created a year ago. I was able fact-check his claims, since I am from the city where Tesonet is based, and found none of them to be completely false or baseless. It turned out to be an open secret in the local tech community[1]. [1] https://i0.wp.com/vpnscam.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-08-24-09_09_14-Window.png https://i0.wp.com/vpnscam.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/201...
      - BanazirGalbasi 7y ago
        From what I remember, that PDF was also created by the same guy and shared on several sites. ProtonVPN at least came forward with a chain of evidence for why there would be a connection, even a weak one, but I don't recall NordVPN saying much at the time. Still, the fact that the co-founder of a VPN company is trying to dig up dirt on other VPN companies doesn't make me trust his at all, it just seems shady.
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        krn 7y ago
        > Still, the fact that the co-founder of a VPN company is trying to dig up dirt on other VPN companies doesn't make me trust his at all, it just seems shady. I think it's a normal practice in every industry to try to find out who your competitors really are. Whether that information should be made public or not is a different question, but it doesn't make it inherently false. Instead of naively believing in carefully crafted rebuttals, people should try to verify the facts by themselves.
chrismeller 7y ago
Their response is certainly better written and does have something about the ring of truth to it. Even taking into account the insanity of legalese that lawsuit was... wordy, at best. Poorly organized and repetitive would also apply.
penagwin 7y ago
I'm not sure, their response could be fabricated too. I'm interested in if Torguard has any evidence of them physically approaching their employee. > Within an hour of this in-person and unannounced visit, the same TorGuard contractor received unsolicited correspondence from an employee at NordVPN. This correspondence stated that NordVPN had received certain of TorGuard’s confidential and trade secret information and requested to set up an instant message chat to discuss this with TorGuard. Also, according to both parties they communicated with each other with evidence. So all either party has to do to claim their innocence is submit the emails/communications they claimed to have. --- The DDOS part I'm very weary about. What evidence does torguard have that NordVPN was the one carrying out the DDOS attacks? I'll admit I haven't thoroughly examined the entire document, but they don't really seem to state how they know NordVPN was behind the attacks, they just list the dates they were attacked. Given the nature of DDOS attacks, they could be from anyone.
- ganoushoreilly 7y ago
  What if I told you that a lot of these "VPN providers" were shell companies built to explicitly facilitate access and tools for crime / espionage with the premise of having users there as cover.
  - walrus01 7y ago
    Not something that many HN posters will be familiar with, but if you're a holder of significant pieces of ARIN or RIPE IP space, you'll inevitably be approached by a number of suspicious looking companies that want to "rent" your ipv4 space (by the /24 block) for VPN/proxy usage. The end result if you actually fall for their bullshit is that your IP space will be listed in every RBL until the end of time, and will have a bottom 5% rank in every IP space reputation/antifraud system until the heat death of the universe. Every time I've been approached by these clowns, I've spent a cursory 3 to 5 minutes trying to find an actual business behind it (names of real humans, street address that isn't just a mailbox, location of real ISP infrastructure equipment at some real IX points) and failed to find anything resembling a legitimate ISP.
ghostwalking 7y ago
The NordVPN blog post leaves me with many questions. 1) Someone supposedly "gave" them the URL. They do not state how they found it, or how it was related to TorGuard. So who gave it to them? The Collective 7 hosting company? It appears Collective 7 was selling "Residential Solutions for VPN Providers": http://web.archive.org/web/20171215024207/http://collectiveseven.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20171215024207/http://collectives... 2) Did they ask TorGuard to censor Youtuber "Tom spark reviews"? It seems he is critical of them: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJWKuGh0qedrYviGEJmlWw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJWKuGh0qedrYviGEJmlWw Tom Spark was also doxxed by the ProtonMail Reddit rep for posting videos they did not like: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/96m5vc/is_it_true_what_they_say/e42jtiw/?st=jlqyxphi&sh=5e77824e https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/96m5vc/is_it_tru... Found the link here: https://medium.com/@gaetanosabin/did-nordvpn-and-protonmail-violate-gdpr-and-us-privacy-laws-by-doxing-vpn-affiliate-2fe7b0d51d1f https://medium.com/@gaetanosabin/did-nordvpn-and-protonmail-... So it doesn't surprise me that NordVPN (Proton) wants this Youtube Streamer's videos and blog taken down. Shouldn't NordVPN and Proton uphold user privacy and fight against internet censorship? They are doing the exact opposite here and that is very troubling.
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zelon88 7y ago
But how did NordVPN find a vulnerability in their trash-talking competition in the first place? What were they poking at and whey were they poking it?
- Tomspark 7y ago
  Exactly...
dontbenebby 7y ago
I always was a little sketched out by Torguard... much like how Wikileaks piggybacked on Wikipedia, the fact they put "Tor" in their name despite not being affiliated with Tor squicked me out a bit.
- larkeith 7y ago
  Note that Wikileaks was originally a wiki, though the name may have also intentionally echoed Wikimedia projects.
- dwater 7y ago
  https://torguard.net/faq.php https://torguard.net/faq.php Is TorGuard related in any way to the “tor” project? Answer: No, The reference to "tor" in TorGuard relates to "torrents" and guarding one’s privacy when using bitorrent. We are not related in any way to the “tor” project however the company does support through donations.
  - dontbenebby 7y ago
    Burying an entry in a FAQ does not change the fact people may not read said FAQ. Tor predates Torguard. It's perfectly possible people may be misled, especially since both are "privacy tools"
Lowkeyloki 7y ago
Nobody comes off looking particularly good here. If these corporations are going to act like grade schoolers calling each other names on the playground, I'm inclined to not use either of them. I used NordVPN for about a year a couple of years ago and I found their quality of service unsatisfactory. I've been using ProtonVPN for about a year now and I've been very satisfied. But that's just my personal experience and YMMV.

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penagwin 7y ago

> On or about May 17, 2019 an unknown individual appeared unannounced at the personal residence of a TorGuard contractor, asking to speak with him about his relationship with TorGuard and the VPN industry This whole thing sounds sketchy AF for NordVPN. While not technically illegal, just approaching a competitor's employee unsolicited at their home (!?) has red flags all over the place.

vectorEQ 7y ago
mind you telling about some privacy company that they have 'trade secrets' which should be exposed is a low blow under the belt... if you have some critical information for its users privacy, then share it... (being privacy advocates and a VPN service themselves.. it would be responsible.) with that in mind, it just sounds like someone with bad temper with too much responsibilities as usually these things turn out to be...
- slenk 7y ago
  They never mentioned that the secrets revolved around user's privacy

jacquesm 7y ago

> What kind of 'trade secret information' could a vpn provider be blackmailed with though? That's easy. A VPN provider has access to all kinds of juicy information, such as who their customers are and what they are up to online. They may have been compromised already, they may sell user data. There are all kinds of things that could be going on that would definitely be stuff they could be blackmailed with. Whether any of that is the case remains to be seen.

Liquix 7y ago
They have definitely been compromised. You can buy lifetime accounts on the darknet for a dime a dozen with suspiciously not-real-person email addresses and passwords. Other VPN services and accounts for sale are much more expensive and you can usually tell at a glance that the credentials were stolen from a real user. Edit: Perhaps the unimpeded sale of these "hacked" accounts leads indirectly/directly back to someone inside NordVPN? A dirty "trade secret" they wouldn't want revealed..? Seems farfetched but they have not proven themselves trustworthy in the past.

xfitm3 7y ago

It’s not uncommon for ISPs to voluntarily tap and sell traffic data to government agencies - perhaps this is another case of that.

ghostwalking 7y ago

> What kind of 'trade secret information' could a vpn provider be blackmailed with though? According to TorGuard's blog post they stole information from an install script that was allegedly used at C7 hosting: https://torguard.net/blog/when-bug-bounties-border-on-blackmail/ https://torguard.net/blog/when-bug-bounties-border-on-blackm... An installer script could easily give an attacker insight into internal TorGuard IP addresses that would otherwise be hidden. My guess is these internal IP addresses from whatever was stolen were targeted with DDOS.

SturmUndDrang 7y ago

> What kind of information could you gleam as the owner of a 'service provider' for such a use? They could find internal targets for DDOS to disrupt the competing VPN service so users get kicked off or can't login. If you can't use what you paid for most would ask to cancel. Ddos attacks like this occur in any competitive space, but what bothers me here is the hosting company Collective seven appears to have betrayed a client's trust for competitive gain. With such dishonest practices by hosting providers these days it makes me wonder what is really going on.

matchcases 7y ago

How come everyone seems to ignore a fact where torguards server config file was floating around on the internet? I just can't wrap my head about that. Is this lawsuit really an attempt to intimidate nord, so they don't disclose this vulnerability publicly? Wouldn't surprise me if so.

Tomspark 7y ago

It's not a YouTube comment. It's my entire channel. They want me to remove NordVPN videos like this one: https://youtu.be/xxwvAjmNec8 https://youtu.be/xxwvAjmNec8

cyberpunk 7y ago
The plot thickens.. I mean... How are you involved? Why would NordVPN allegedly blackmail TorGuard to get you to stop posting negative things? What leverage does TorGuard have over you?
- deleted 7y ago
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