7 ms·

This is the second time I am reading some absolutely ridiculous new law from France. The other time was when I learnt paternity tests and DNA testing is illegal

This is the second time I am reading some absolutely ridiculous new law from France. The other time was when I learnt paternity tests and DNA testing is illegal in France too. Source: https://www.thelocal.fr/20181220/french-ban-on-dna-testing-cant-stop-the-craze https://www.thelocal.fr/20181220/french-ban-on-dna-testing-c... https://www.ibdna.com/paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france/ https://www.ibdna.com/paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France https://www.irishtimes.com/news/french-men-s-insecurity-over-paternity-of-offspring-creating-a-society-of-doubt-1.773569 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/french-men-s-insecurity-over...

yoz-y 7y ago
No they are not
- busymom0 7y ago
  Updated comment with source.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  Source?
  - yoz-y 7y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France Private paternity testing is illegal. If there is contestation of paternity or a legal dispute, a judge can and will mandate a test.
differentView 7y ago
Source?
- busymom0 7y ago
  https://www.thelocal.fr/20181220/french-ban-on-dna-testing-cant-stop-the-craze https://www.thelocal.fr/20181220/french-ban-on-dna-testing-c... https://www.ibdna.com/paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france/ https://www.ibdna.com/paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France https://www.irishtimes.com/news/french-men-s-insecurity-over-paternity-of-offspring-creating-a-society-of-doubt-1.773569 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/french-men-s-insecurity-over...
paulddraper 7y ago
> Private DNA paternity testing is illegal, including through laboratories in other countries, and is punishable by up to a year in prison and a €15,000 fine. Felony paternity testing...I have no words.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  I wonder if that law would stand up to an appeal at the EU Courts... I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that this law inhibits laboratories outside of France in doing business in France. And DNA testing seems too easy to me to be prohibited. We shed DNA all the time and it is becoming easier and easier to run PCRs or even sequence genomes. Of course, the legal issue is with the invasion of privacy, and potential harm to the children's psyche, so there is actually some justification.
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    > invasion of privacy, and potential harm to the children's psyche On the other hand, if you're going to extract payment, you should probably have to provide evidence that payment is due.
  - x220 7y ago
    >potential harm to the children's psyche What about the potential harm to the psyche of a husband who doesn't know if he is the father of some children?
    - bayesian_horse 7y ago
      That husband should grow up.
      - x220 7y ago
        So the suffering of men doesn't matter and men should just silently deal with it? That sounds like toxic masculinity.
isolli 7y ago
That's interesting, but you should specify that "private DNA paternity testing is illegal". Testing can still be mandated by a judge.
- HenryBemis 7y ago
  With the track record of French politicians, it is no surprise that politicians would dislike paternity DNA testing!!! From wikipedia regarding François Mitterrand [0]: He also had two children as results of extra-marital affairs: an acknowledged daughter, Mazarine (born 1974), with his mistress Anne Pingeot, and an unacknowledged son, Hravn Forsne (born 1988), with Swedish journalist Christina Forsne. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Mitterrand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Mitterrand
- dogma1138 7y ago
  And to be fair there are many places including like half of US states where a paternal test if not court ordered requires the consent of both parents listed on the birth certificate. And to get a court mandate in such cases where you think the child might not be yours you must basically "prove" the mother had to opportunity to cheat on you and that it could have resulted in the conception, and even then it may not exempt you from paying child support if you are listed as the father on the birth certificate you may only be able to claim them back from the biological father if you ever find him.
  - busymom0 7y ago
    It's not just paternity tests in France though. Even simple ancestry tests are illegal there.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
seszett 7y ago
But what's the point of paternity testing if it's not within the frame of a legal procedure? And if there's a legal procedure, then it's legal.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  Why do you care that someone wants to pay for the test? Just let them
  - justinclift 7y ago
    It can generate privacy issues for all of their relatives, depending on who has access to the data afterwards. :(
    - busymom0 7y ago
      I think that's just an excuse they use. It's not hard for government to do the test, get the result about whether someone is the parent or not and then completely delete the data.
      - seszett 7y ago
        But that's how it happens in France already, and I think people here are arguing for allowing private testing instead?
    - x220 7y ago
      Wouldn't these same privacy issues come up if someone submitted their own DNA for an ancestry test? And yet, these tests are not illegal.
      - busymom0 7y ago
        In France, those ancestry tests are illegal too.
  - seszett 7y ago
x220 7y ago
Both laws make sense if you consider that the motive might be to keep the state stable at the expense of individuals. Keep people from criticizing court decisions so that it doesn't cause civil unrest. Raise the costs of fathers finding out paternity so that fewer women and children are supported by the state.
- busymom0 7y ago
  > motive might be to keep the state stable at the expense of individuals I would argue this is exactly what a government shouldn't be doing. They can continue doing so until enough people get fed up with it and cause a civil unrest. Not the same reasons but things like Brexit and the France protests are all caused because of the people getting fed up of the government.
  - pif 7y ago
    > ... people getting fed up of the government. In a working democracy, like France or UK, or USA, only an idiot thinks of the government as something separated from people. If you don't like your democratic goverment, it means that you don't like the majority of your compatriots: time to emigrate or try and accept.
Kyrio 7y ago
Excuse me but... what's your point? New ridiculous laws are being voted everywhere. From France's point of view it looks like the US keeps coming up with those (e.g. healthcare, net neutrality, Alabama abortion ban). Maybe you're from a sensible country, I surely hope there are some, but of course you're going to hear mostly about the bad laws because that's what people are most interested in discussing (for example, gender equality being enshrined in the first article of our constitution wasn't discussed a lot). I can't deny that there's been some regrettable decision-making in my country. I'm just a bit frustrated that the top comment seems to imply that a country is on a dangerous path because things sometimes come up about it on HN.
pif 7y ago
Quoted from the first article you linked: Why is it banned? French doctors have pointed out that as the popularity of these tests has increased, they have seen more patients who are worried about the results. "We regularly have consultations with people because they had no idea what they were getting in to," Professor Stanislas Lyonnet, director of an institute on genetic diseases told the French press. "They did a test they thought would be fun but they are often actually receiving crucial and sometimes scientifically sound information." Lyonnet went on to say that people might find out they are "a carrier of cystic fibrosis, they have a risk of having Huntington's disease, they have a risk of breast cancer or ovarian cancer ... This comes without further information or medical guidance so finding it out from under a Christmas tree is really ridiculous!" Some have also suggested the reason for the ongoing ban is to "preserve the peace" in French families, with many incidents of people taking the test and discovering information such as that one of their parents isn't actually theirs. So, please, what's so ridiculous about it?
- lstodd 7y ago
  > So, please, what's so ridiculous about it? Just about everything. "No no no this reality is so frightful, please hide it from everyone" pathetic.
- koonsolo 7y ago
  It depends if you want the state to either give you freedom, or protect you from your own freedom. US leans on the freedom side, communism on the other. So I guess it's your political preference if you think this is ridiculous or not. But I would hope any western country would prefer freedom above limiting it for your own good.
  - boardwaalk 7y ago
    That is not what communism is.
ElFitz 7y ago
Given the great number of crappy so-called results from so-called tests (https://gizmodo.com/report-a-dna-testing-company-could-not-tell-the-differ-1825715321 https://gizmodo.com/report-a-dna-testing-company-could-not-t... is hilarious)... yeah, it's best not to leave such serious matters be handled by such clowns https://gizmodo.com/how-dna-testing-botched-my-familys-heritage-and-probab-1820932637 https://gizmodo.com/how-dna-testing-botched-my-familys-herit... https://www.livescience.com/63997-dna-ancestry-test-results-explained.html https://www.livescience.com/63997-dna-ancestry-test-results-... https://gizmodo.com/i-tried-a-bunch-of-dna-tests-and-all-i-got-was-a-bunch-1798536523 https://gizmodo.com/i-tried-a-bunch-of-dna-tests-and-all-i-g... https://gizmodo.com/the-next-pseudoscience-health-craze-is-all-about-geneti-1792194708 https://gizmodo.com/the-next-pseudoscience-health-craze-is-a... https://gizmodo.com/another-dna-testing-company-reportedly-gets-fooled-by-d-1826842819 https://gizmodo.com/another-dna-testing-company-reportedly-g... Edit: hackernews if full of these articles https://www.google.com/search?q=dna+testing+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com&oq=dna+testing+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com https://www.google.com/search?q=dna+testing+site%3Anews.ycom...
ElFitz 7y ago
Edit: I should have read the article instead of guessing it's content Also, AI programs in such matters get way too much credit. They is a lot to be done before we should consider using them like that. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/26/opinion/algorithm-compas-sentencing-bias.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/26/opinion/algorithm-compas-... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/13/ai-programs-exhibit-racist-and-sexist-biases-research-reveals https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/13/ai-progra... Another problem is that most of these tools are developed by private companies. Relying on them for judicial decisions pretty much the same as privatizing justice. Especially when said tools are such black boxes https://www.wired.com/2017/04/courts-using-ai-sentence-criminals-must-stop-now/ https://www.wired.com/2017/04/courts-using-ai-sentence-crimi...

yoz-y 7y ago

No they are not

busymom0 7y ago
Updated comment with source.
paulddraper 7y ago
Source?
- yoz-y 7y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France Private paternity testing is illegal. If there is contestation of paternity or a legal dispute, a judge can and will mandate a test.

differentView 7y ago

Source?

busymom0 7y ago
https://www.thelocal.fr/20181220/french-ban-on-dna-testing-cant-stop-the-craze https://www.thelocal.fr/20181220/french-ban-on-dna-testing-c... https://www.ibdna.com/paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france/ https://www.ibdna.com/paternity-testing-ban-upheld-in-france... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing#France https://www.irishtimes.com/news/french-men-s-insecurity-over-paternity-of-offspring-creating-a-society-of-doubt-1.773569 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/french-men-s-insecurity-over...

paulddraper 7y ago

> Private DNA paternity testing is illegal, including through laboratories in other countries, and is punishable by up to a year in prison and a €15,000 fine. Felony paternity testing...I have no words.

bayesian_horse 7y ago
I wonder if that law would stand up to an appeal at the EU Courts... I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that this law inhibits laboratories outside of France in doing business in France. And DNA testing seems too easy to me to be prohibited. We shed DNA all the time and it is becoming easier and easier to run PCRs or even sequence genomes. Of course, the legal issue is with the invasion of privacy, and potential harm to the children's psyche, so there is actually some justification.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  > invasion of privacy, and potential harm to the children's psyche On the other hand, if you're going to extract payment, you should probably have to provide evidence that payment is due.
- x220 7y ago
  >potential harm to the children's psyche What about the potential harm to the psyche of a husband who doesn't know if he is the father of some children?
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    That husband should grow up.
    - x220 7y ago
      So the suffering of men doesn't matter and men should just silently deal with it? That sounds like toxic masculinity.

isolli 7y ago

That's interesting, but you should specify that "private DNA paternity testing is illegal". Testing can still be mandated by a judge.

HenryBemis 7y ago
With the track record of French politicians, it is no surprise that politicians would dislike paternity DNA testing!!! From wikipedia regarding François Mitterrand [0]: He also had two children as results of extra-marital affairs: an acknowledged daughter, Mazarine (born 1974), with his mistress Anne Pingeot, and an unacknowledged son, Hravn Forsne (born 1988), with Swedish journalist Christina Forsne. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Mitterrand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Mitterrand
dogma1138 7y ago
And to be fair there are many places including like half of US states where a paternal test if not court ordered requires the consent of both parents listed on the birth certificate. And to get a court mandate in such cases where you think the child might not be yours you must basically "prove" the mother had to opportunity to cheat on you and that it could have resulted in the conception, and even then it may not exempt you from paying child support if you are listed as the father on the birth certificate you may only be able to claim them back from the biological father if you ever find him.
- busymom0 7y ago
  It's not just paternity tests in France though. Even simple ancestry tests are illegal there.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

seszett 7y ago

But what's the point of paternity testing if it's not within the frame of a legal procedure? And if there's a legal procedure, then it's legal.

TomMarius 7y ago
Why do you care that someone wants to pay for the test? Just let them
- justinclift 7y ago
  It can generate privacy issues for all of their relatives, depending on who has access to the data afterwards. :(
  - busymom0 7y ago
    I think that's just an excuse they use. It's not hard for government to do the test, get the result about whether someone is the parent or not and then completely delete the data.
    - seszett 7y ago
      But that's how it happens in France already, and I think people here are arguing for allowing private testing instead?
  - x220 7y ago
    Wouldn't these same privacy issues come up if someone submitted their own DNA for an ancestry test? And yet, these tests are not illegal.
    - busymom0 7y ago
      In France, those ancestry tests are illegal too.
- seszett 7y ago

x220 7y ago

Both laws make sense if you consider that the motive might be to keep the state stable at the expense of individuals. Keep people from criticizing court decisions so that it doesn't cause civil unrest. Raise the costs of fathers finding out paternity so that fewer women and children are supported by the state.

busymom0 7y ago
> motive might be to keep the state stable at the expense of individuals I would argue this is exactly what a government shouldn't be doing. They can continue doing so until enough people get fed up with it and cause a civil unrest. Not the same reasons but things like Brexit and the France protests are all caused because of the people getting fed up of the government.
- pif 7y ago
  > ... people getting fed up of the government. In a working democracy, like France or UK, or USA, only an idiot thinks of the government as something separated from people. If you don't like your democratic goverment, it means that you don't like the majority of your compatriots: time to emigrate or try and accept.

Kyrio 7y ago

Excuse me but... what's your point? New ridiculous laws are being voted everywhere. From France's point of view it looks like the US keeps coming up with those (e.g. healthcare, net neutrality, Alabama abortion ban). Maybe you're from a sensible country, I surely hope there are some, but of course you're going to hear mostly about the bad laws because that's what people are most interested in discussing (for example, gender equality being enshrined in the first article of our constitution wasn't discussed a lot). I can't deny that there's been some regrettable decision-making in my country. I'm just a bit frustrated that the top comment seems to imply that a country is on a dangerous path because things sometimes come up about it on HN.

pif 7y ago

Quoted from the first article you linked: Why is it banned? French doctors have pointed out that as the popularity of these tests has increased, they have seen more patients who are worried about the results. "We regularly have consultations with people because they had no idea what they were getting in to," Professor Stanislas Lyonnet, director of an institute on genetic diseases told the French press. "They did a test they thought would be fun but they are often actually receiving crucial and sometimes scientifically sound information." Lyonnet went on to say that people might find out they are "a carrier of cystic fibrosis, they have a risk of having Huntington's disease, they have a risk of breast cancer or ovarian cancer ... This comes without further information or medical guidance so finding it out from under a Christmas tree is really ridiculous!" Some have also suggested the reason for the ongoing ban is to "preserve the peace" in French families, with many incidents of people taking the test and discovering information such as that one of their parents isn't actually theirs. So, please, what's so ridiculous about it?

lstodd 7y ago
> So, please, what's so ridiculous about it? Just about everything. "No no no this reality is so frightful, please hide it from everyone" pathetic.
koonsolo 7y ago
It depends if you want the state to either give you freedom, or protect you from your own freedom. US leans on the freedom side, communism on the other. So I guess it's your political preference if you think this is ridiculous or not. But I would hope any western country would prefer freedom above limiting it for your own good.
- boardwaalk 7y ago
  That is not what communism is.

ElFitz 7y ago

Given the great number of crappy so-called results from so-called tests (https://gizmodo.com/report-a-dna-testing-company-could-not-tell-the-differ-1825715321 https://gizmodo.com/report-a-dna-testing-company-could-not-t... is hilarious)... yeah, it's best not to leave such serious matters be handled by such clowns https://gizmodo.com/how-dna-testing-botched-my-familys-heritage-and-probab-1820932637 https://gizmodo.com/how-dna-testing-botched-my-familys-herit... https://www.livescience.com/63997-dna-ancestry-test-results-explained.html https://www.livescience.com/63997-dna-ancestry-test-results-... https://gizmodo.com/i-tried-a-bunch-of-dna-tests-and-all-i-got-was-a-bunch-1798536523 https://gizmodo.com/i-tried-a-bunch-of-dna-tests-and-all-i-g... https://gizmodo.com/the-next-pseudoscience-health-craze-is-all-about-geneti-1792194708 https://gizmodo.com/the-next-pseudoscience-health-craze-is-a... https://gizmodo.com/another-dna-testing-company-reportedly-gets-fooled-by-d-1826842819 https://gizmodo.com/another-dna-testing-company-reportedly-g... Edit: hackernews if full of these articles https://www.google.com/search?q=dna+testing+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com&oq=dna+testing+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com https://www.google.com/search?q=dna+testing+site%3Anews.ycom...

ElFitz 7y ago

Edit: I should have read the article instead of guessing it's content Also, AI programs in such matters get way too much credit. They is a lot to be done before we should consider using them like that. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/26/opinion/algorithm-compas-sentencing-bias.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/26/opinion/algorithm-compas-... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/13/ai-programs-exhibit-racist-and-sexist-biases-research-reveals https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/13/ai-progra... Another problem is that most of these tools are developed by private companies. Relying on them for judicial decisions pretty much the same as privatizing justice. Especially when said tools are such black boxes https://www.wired.com/2017/04/courts-using-ai-sentence-criminals-must-stop-now/ https://www.wired.com/2017/04/courts-using-ai-sentence-crimi...