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As one programmer to another -- don't do it. Programmers can never learn the ART of graphic design from books. B Graphic design is a black art -- for most prog

As one programmer to another -- don't do it. Programmers can never learn the ART of graphic design from books. B Graphic design is a black art -- for most programmers; you could end up spending a whole day trying to create a 32x32 icon and still hate it. I have wasted many afternoons cussing at my own design work. My advise is to get really good at a web framework in a language of your choice and create code that separates logic from presentation. Leave the design work to the pros.

tejaswiy 16y ago
See, this is the problem. If there's one thing you absolutely cannot say to a programmer, it is that (s)he cannot do something. That just strikes a nerve somewhere. Some fundamental part of me just cannot accept that I as a person am incapable of something. This might sound incredibly ego-istic, but it's true. "There is no problem that cannot be solved by adding another layer of indirection"
- ryandvm 16y ago
  I think it's a disservice to humanity to continue to propagate the belief that we are all blank slates capable of anything. It sure would be nice, but there is absolutely no evidence to support it. We aren't foolish enough to suggest that anyone can be world class high jumper. Why do we believe that we can all train our neurons to equal levels of performance? I will never compose a symphony. I could not paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. I can't out-code John Carmack. And I will never best Ken Jennings at Jeopardy. The list goes on... Identify where you excel and where you are deficient, and learn to strategize accordingly. If you are lucky your blessings outweigh your shortcomings...
  - tjpick 16y ago
    Whatever. You only have to be near the top for one thing, if any. For the rest of the things you do, a) enjoy yourself and b) drag yourself up to somewhere near the centre of the bell curve. You'll still be better than half the people who are actually getting paid to do it. A programmer getting a few design skills is well worth the effort.
thereddestruby 16y ago
As one programmer to another -- you may want to rethink your point of view. "Art" is as much about craft as anything else.
brettbender 16y ago
I agree, it's very important that we never do things that we might not be good at, or people traditionally think don't 'fit' with what programmers in general do. Any chance of failing at being a designer/artist/photographer/whatever is too much. Also, being able to see from a designer's point of view (or at least understand their field/expertise a slight bit better) is not in any way beneficial.
tianyicui 16y ago
What if I can't find/afford pro designers? I'm just a college student who thinks coding is fun and wants to build a web app by his own. And learn and do the design by myself seems to be my the only option, since I can't find designers (at least here in China) to be collaborator and do things for free, and I can't afford to hire one either. BTW, I really don't think "get really good at a web framework in a language of your choice" is the best career advice from one programmer to another.
gte910h 16y ago
It's not a black art -- it just doesn't use many of the same skills most programmers have. That's like saying "playing music ia a black art". No, it just requires a skillset other than you currently have. Graphic design in particular, is a speciality in which the process of learning pays off greatly. I mean you go from utter crap, to able to alter common designs to your purpose pretty quickly, after about only 80-120 hours of actual education on the topic. The skills involved in graphic design are: Drawing Conceptualization of Space Conceptualization of Color Functional Organization Effective Information Visualization Execution in tools And I honestly don't think most of those overlap with programmers base skill sets you have to pickup to do code. It honestly sounds like you're suffering in the "Execution in tools" section. That's actually the easiest one to "get" in my opinion. Almost any programmer who can follow directions, and has a drawing program can do a bunch of the tutorials (we're talking 40-120 hours of doing tutorials) and practice making different things using those tutorials. You'll then make things "close enough" to fake it for awhile. Notice this isn't like 20 minutes. It's a real effort. But it's not years before you start seeing real improvements and serviceable work.
- tianyicui 16y ago
  Can you recommend a design tutorial for programmer to follow? Is _Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain_ your recommendation too? Thanks.
  - gte910h 16y ago
    Robin Williams (Same name, different person than the comedian) makes s set of books targeted at the non-designer. Amazon has lots of them. Non-aff link http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=robin+williams+design&x=0&y=0 http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dap... To learn to draw, Mark Kistler's Draw squad isn't a horrible thing to get you going and to start to look at shadows, etc (however is aimed at children). As far as tools, trying out the following are good: http://www.pixelmator.com/learn/ http://www.pixelmator.com/learn/ (Scroll to bottom of the page) http://qrayg.com/learn/fireworks/ http://qrayg.com/learn/fireworks/ visual photoshop: http://www.noupe.com/tutorial/30-useful-abstract-photoshop-design-tutorials.html http://www.noupe.com/tutorial/30-useful-abstract-photoshop-d... And while I think the actual lessons are sorta ugly they're not bad on tool usage fundamentals: http://www.pvmgarage.com/2010/11/top-ten-photoshop-website-design-tutorials/ http://www.pvmgarage.com/2010/11/top-ten-photoshop-website-d...
Zev 16y ago
..you could end up spending a whole day trying to create a 32x32 icon and still hate it. So can a designer ;)
medius 16y ago
I do not agree with this. Even though someone identifies themselves as a programmer, that does not mean they cannot do design. It's just that they haven't tried it yet. That person might turn out to be an even better designer than a programmer. I am actually a hardware engineer transitioning into web application development. Design is something that I have never done in my life. However, I am beginning to find it very interesting and believe that it can be very rewarding emotionally as well. The world of design is so much richer than the hard, concrete world of programming revolving around features and bugs (I do appreciate the art of writing a good, clean, maintainable and reusable code). Even deciding what features to support and what to ignore based on how you want a user to interact with your website is design. No amount of programming skill can rescue you from having to make these decisions.

tejaswiy 16y ago

See, this is the problem. If there's one thing you absolutely cannot say to a programmer, it is that (s)he cannot do something. That just strikes a nerve somewhere. Some fundamental part of me just cannot accept that I as a person am incapable of something. This might sound incredibly ego-istic, but it's true. "There is no problem that cannot be solved by adding another layer of indirection"

ryandvm 16y ago
I think it's a disservice to humanity to continue to propagate the belief that we are all blank slates capable of anything. It sure would be nice, but there is absolutely no evidence to support it. We aren't foolish enough to suggest that anyone can be world class high jumper. Why do we believe that we can all train our neurons to equal levels of performance? I will never compose a symphony. I could not paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. I can't out-code John Carmack. And I will never best Ken Jennings at Jeopardy. The list goes on... Identify where you excel and where you are deficient, and learn to strategize accordingly. If you are lucky your blessings outweigh your shortcomings...
- tjpick 16y ago
  Whatever. You only have to be near the top for one thing, if any. For the rest of the things you do, a) enjoy yourself and b) drag yourself up to somewhere near the centre of the bell curve. You'll still be better than half the people who are actually getting paid to do it. A programmer getting a few design skills is well worth the effort.

thereddestruby 16y ago

As one programmer to another -- you may want to rethink your point of view. "Art" is as much about craft as anything else.

brettbender 16y ago

I agree, it's very important that we never do things that we might not be good at, or people traditionally think don't 'fit' with what programmers in general do. Any chance of failing at being a designer/artist/photographer/whatever is too much. Also, being able to see from a designer's point of view (or at least understand their field/expertise a slight bit better) is not in any way beneficial.

tianyicui 16y ago

What if I can't find/afford pro designers? I'm just a college student who thinks coding is fun and wants to build a web app by his own. And learn and do the design by myself seems to be my the only option, since I can't find designers (at least here in China) to be collaborator and do things for free, and I can't afford to hire one either. BTW, I really don't think "get really good at a web framework in a language of your choice" is the best career advice from one programmer to another.

gte910h 16y ago

It's not a black art -- it just doesn't use many of the same skills most programmers have. That's like saying "playing music ia a black art". No, it just requires a skillset other than you currently have. Graphic design in particular, is a speciality in which the process of learning pays off greatly. I mean you go from utter crap, to able to alter common designs to your purpose pretty quickly, after about only 80-120 hours of actual education on the topic. The skills involved in graphic design are: Drawing Conceptualization of Space Conceptualization of Color Functional Organization Effective Information Visualization Execution in tools And I honestly don't think most of those overlap with programmers base skill sets you have to pickup to do code. It honestly sounds like you're suffering in the "Execution in tools" section. That's actually the easiest one to "get" in my opinion. Almost any programmer who can follow directions, and has a drawing program can do a bunch of the tutorials (we're talking 40-120 hours of doing tutorials) and practice making different things using those tutorials. You'll then make things "close enough" to fake it for awhile. Notice this isn't like 20 minutes. It's a real effort. But it's not years before you start seeing real improvements and serviceable work.

tianyicui 16y ago
Can you recommend a design tutorial for programmer to follow? Is _Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain_ your recommendation too? Thanks.
- gte910h 16y ago
  Robin Williams (Same name, different person than the comedian) makes s set of books targeted at the non-designer. Amazon has lots of them. Non-aff link http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=robin+williams+design&x=0&y=0 http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dap... To learn to draw, Mark Kistler's Draw squad isn't a horrible thing to get you going and to start to look at shadows, etc (however is aimed at children). As far as tools, trying out the following are good: http://www.pixelmator.com/learn/ http://www.pixelmator.com/learn/ (Scroll to bottom of the page) http://qrayg.com/learn/fireworks/ http://qrayg.com/learn/fireworks/ visual photoshop: http://www.noupe.com/tutorial/30-useful-abstract-photoshop-design-tutorials.html http://www.noupe.com/tutorial/30-useful-abstract-photoshop-d... And while I think the actual lessons are sorta ugly they're not bad on tool usage fundamentals: http://www.pvmgarage.com/2010/11/top-ten-photoshop-website-design-tutorials/ http://www.pvmgarage.com/2010/11/top-ten-photoshop-website-d...

Zev 16y ago

..you could end up spending a whole day trying to create a 32x32 icon and still hate it. So can a designer ;)

medius 16y ago

I do not agree with this. Even though someone identifies themselves as a programmer, that does not mean they cannot do design. It's just that they haven't tried it yet. That person might turn out to be an even better designer than a programmer. I am actually a hardware engineer transitioning into web application development. Design is something that I have never done in my life. However, I am beginning to find it very interesting and believe that it can be very rewarding emotionally as well. The world of design is so much richer than the hard, concrete world of programming revolving around features and bugs (I do appreciate the art of writing a good, clean, maintainable and reusable code). Even deciding what features to support and what to ignore based on how you want a user to interact with your website is design. No amount of programming skill can rescue you from having to make these decisions.