6 ms·

From a purely self-interested perspective, this is the dumbest thing the US could possibly do. There are talented people who want to leave China and come study

From a purely self-interested perspective, this is the dumbest thing the US could possibly do. There are talented people who want to leave China and come study and work in the US. We are basically stealing China’s best minds. Now we’re telling them they can’t come and shipping them back? I don’t think we should have conflict with China, but, if you are looking for conflict with China, sending brilliant minds back to them is so stupid that it’s almost unimaginable

Salgat 7y ago
You're absolutely right. China is desperately fighting brain drain and here we are giving them a helping hand.
- pluffycat 7y ago
  zomg downvoted
  - danielscrubs 7y ago
    From Tinder, I’d say height is the primary factor and shyness secondary. Let’s see when the first shy short guy gets the girl in a Hollywood movie. I’d like to stop Hollywoods gangster glorification also but... Plenty of short famous actors so it’s just a matter of not trick filming. Maybe less makeup when we are at it? I’ll stop because I both sound like an incel and as my parents at the same time. I’m not even affected by this in any way. Now that I think about it, it works to my advantage. But it doesn’t feel right.
- jtanderson 7y ago
  Almost makes me wonder if it's deliberate, as in some quid pro quo agreed upon, implied, or otherwise, between the US and Chinese presidents. Though what the US gets out of it is unclear, I wouldn't be shocked.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    More funding for Trump's world wide real estate projects from Chinese banks? More Chinese Business contacts for the extended Kushner family? Access to the President for Chinese business men through the former owner of "massage parlours" recently involved in slave sex labor? More patents and trade marks for Ivanka Trump?
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    Trump wants people to stop buying services from AT&T, as of yesterday; >"I believe that if people stoped[sic] using or subscribing to @ATT, they would be forced to make big changes at @CNN, which is dying in the ratings anyway. It is so unfair with such bad, Fake News! Why wouldn’t they act. When the World watches @CNN, it gets a false picture of USA. Sad!" — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 3, 2019 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1135499002626154496 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/11354990026261544... What the US gets out of that is also unclear. I guess you could just take at face value this proposition by the US President that boycotting AT&T to enforce large changes in the editorial policy of CNN is something that is good for the US. But I think that you would also have to be very careful not to think about it very hard.
    - freeflight 7y ago
      > What the US gets out of that is also unclear. It gets the media landscape in-line with the administration: "Don't you dare to report badly about me or I will make you pay for it.", at least it attempts to.
potatofarmer45 7y ago
The question, is these bright minds never spent 10 years at MIT or Harvard, and instead spent it at Peking University, would be they be of the same caliber?
- ulfw 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsinghua_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsinghua_University Tsinghua in Beijing is one of the world's foremost universities. A ton of Chinese leaders and also two Nobel laureates come from there.
  - zwaps 7y ago
    Not that it isn't a good university, I mean I hear decent things, but two Nobel laureates is really not that much for a top university. Many local European universities have more.
    - Jommi 7y ago
      How is it not a good university? Is it solely measured on Nobel Laureates?
      - zwaps 7y ago
        Read again.
- ajmurmann 7y ago
  Probably not. However, does it matter? If we take some of the best and brightest from China and make them even better, why would it matter if they'd otherwise be still some of China's best and brightest but less well trained? Regardless the US wins and China loses very talented people.
  - toomanyrichies 7y ago
    > does it matter? It matters if they return to China with their American education and: -engage in nation-state attacks on behalf of the PLA [1], or -build facial-recognition software to further repress the Uyghur community [2], or -contribute to the "social credit" system which makes it next-to-impossible for everyday Chinese to express anything other than unvarnished support of the ruling party [3], or -eavesdrop on advocates for democracy in Hong Kong [4], or -build advanced weapons systems that are then installed on newly-constructed islands in the South China Sea [5], or -conduct industrial espionage on behalf of Chinese companies with key government contacts or PLA-connected C-level execs [6], or -participate in advanced research projects like quantum satellites which could give China a persistent strategic advantage against the NSA [7], or -install facial recognition technology in primary-school and middle-school classrooms to enhance indoctrination methods at an earlier age [8], or -any other number of future scenarios we haven't even discussed. I'm not saying every overseas Chinese student fits this description. While living in Shanghai for almost 6 years, I encountered quite a few that were open to democratic ideals and skeptical of their government's propaganda. However, there is also a non-trivial amount of nationalism among everyday Chinese, and the CCP is capable of directing it against the US anytime it sees fit, through its monopoly of mainland media outlets (and increasingly, non-mainland ones as well) [9]. I don't pretend to have a solution to this problem. But I think it may be short-sighted to expect Chinese students to be wooed by the wonders of democracy after a short-term study-abroad program in a country whose democracy is flawed at best. ------------ Sources: [1] https://www.cbronline.com/what-is/what-is-pla-unit-61398-and-who-are-the-five-chinese-hackers-4271980/ https://www.cbronline.com/what-is/what-is-pla-unit-61398-and... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/apr/11/china-hi-tech-war-on-muslim-minority-xinjiang-uighurs-surveillance-face-recognition https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/apr/11/china-hi-tech-w... [3] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-system-punishments-and-rewards-explained-2018-4/ https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-system-p... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_China#Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_China#Hon... [5] https://futurism.com/the-byte/australia-chinese-lasers-military-pilots https://futurism.com/the-byte/australia-chinese-lasers-milit... [6] https://www.globaldots.com/chinese-spying-chips-found-hidden-on-servers-used-by-us-companies/ https://www.globaldots.com/chinese-spying-chips-found-hidden... [7] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/china-s-quantum-satellite-achieves-spooky-action-record-distance https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/china-s-quantum-sate... [8] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-school-facial-recognition-technology-2018-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/china-school-facial-recognit... [9] https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/speak-no-evil-mass-media-control-contemporary-china https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/speak-no-evi...
beebmam 7y ago
Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China are "China's best minds"? Please, show me some evidence for this egregious claim. There is no such thing as modern Chinese meritocracy.
- hyperbovine 7y ago
  Important to distinguish between undergrad and graduate here. The "rich kids from China" phenomenon is mainly about undergraduates doing 4-year degrees. This article suggests that Trump wants to crack down on Chinese graduate students, where admission is much more merit based. If true, this is a terrible idea.
  - beebmam 7y ago
    Fair enough, good point.
- ulfw 7y ago
  Neither is there an American one. Wealthy Americans can and have bought their way into Harvard, Stanford et. al. left and right.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  >Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China are "China's best minds"? As we've seen with the recent scandals (and we also knew before), the wealthiest American attendees are hardly America's best minds either. Don't think this is a problem that only applies to foreign students. If you want to remove wealth advantages for top tier universities I'm all for it, but it's a bad club to use in this debate.
  - asdf21 7y ago
    Don't presume a few exceptions in America meritocracy (who drastically overpaid and had to jump through tons of hoops to cheat the system) compare to what is the norm internationally.
- 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

Salgat 7y ago

You're absolutely right. China is desperately fighting brain drain and here we are giving them a helping hand.

pluffycat 7y ago
zomg downvoted
- danielscrubs 7y ago
  From Tinder, I’d say height is the primary factor and shyness secondary. Let’s see when the first shy short guy gets the girl in a Hollywood movie. I’d like to stop Hollywoods gangster glorification also but... Plenty of short famous actors so it’s just a matter of not trick filming. Maybe less makeup when we are at it? I’ll stop because I both sound like an incel and as my parents at the same time. I’m not even affected by this in any way. Now that I think about it, it works to my advantage. But it doesn’t feel right.
jtanderson 7y ago
Almost makes me wonder if it's deliberate, as in some quid pro quo agreed upon, implied, or otherwise, between the US and Chinese presidents. Though what the US gets out of it is unclear, I wouldn't be shocked.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  More funding for Trump's world wide real estate projects from Chinese banks? More Chinese Business contacts for the extended Kushner family? Access to the President for Chinese business men through the former owner of "massage parlours" recently involved in slave sex labor? More patents and trade marks for Ivanka Trump?
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  Trump wants people to stop buying services from AT&T, as of yesterday; >"I believe that if people stoped[sic] using or subscribing to @ATT, they would be forced to make big changes at @CNN, which is dying in the ratings anyway. It is so unfair with such bad, Fake News! Why wouldn’t they act. When the World watches @CNN, it gets a false picture of USA. Sad!" — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 3, 2019 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1135499002626154496 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/11354990026261544... What the US gets out of that is also unclear. I guess you could just take at face value this proposition by the US President that boycotting AT&T to enforce large changes in the editorial policy of CNN is something that is good for the US. But I think that you would also have to be very careful not to think about it very hard.
  - freeflight 7y ago
    > What the US gets out of that is also unclear. It gets the media landscape in-line with the administration: "Don't you dare to report badly about me or I will make you pay for it.", at least it attempts to.

potatofarmer45 7y ago

The question, is these bright minds never spent 10 years at MIT or Harvard, and instead spent it at Peking University, would be they be of the same caliber?

ulfw 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsinghua_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsinghua_University Tsinghua in Beijing is one of the world's foremost universities. A ton of Chinese leaders and also two Nobel laureates come from there.
- zwaps 7y ago
  Not that it isn't a good university, I mean I hear decent things, but two Nobel laureates is really not that much for a top university. Many local European universities have more.
  - Jommi 7y ago
    How is it not a good university? Is it solely measured on Nobel Laureates?
    - zwaps 7y ago
      Read again.
ajmurmann 7y ago
Probably not. However, does it matter? If we take some of the best and brightest from China and make them even better, why would it matter if they'd otherwise be still some of China's best and brightest but less well trained? Regardless the US wins and China loses very talented people.
- toomanyrichies 7y ago
  > does it matter? It matters if they return to China with their American education and: -engage in nation-state attacks on behalf of the PLA [1], or -build facial-recognition software to further repress the Uyghur community [2], or -contribute to the "social credit" system which makes it next-to-impossible for everyday Chinese to express anything other than unvarnished support of the ruling party [3], or -eavesdrop on advocates for democracy in Hong Kong [4], or -build advanced weapons systems that are then installed on newly-constructed islands in the South China Sea [5], or -conduct industrial espionage on behalf of Chinese companies with key government contacts or PLA-connected C-level execs [6], or -participate in advanced research projects like quantum satellites which could give China a persistent strategic advantage against the NSA [7], or -install facial recognition technology in primary-school and middle-school classrooms to enhance indoctrination methods at an earlier age [8], or -any other number of future scenarios we haven't even discussed. I'm not saying every overseas Chinese student fits this description. While living in Shanghai for almost 6 years, I encountered quite a few that were open to democratic ideals and skeptical of their government's propaganda. However, there is also a non-trivial amount of nationalism among everyday Chinese, and the CCP is capable of directing it against the US anytime it sees fit, through its monopoly of mainland media outlets (and increasingly, non-mainland ones as well) [9]. I don't pretend to have a solution to this problem. But I think it may be short-sighted to expect Chinese students to be wooed by the wonders of democracy after a short-term study-abroad program in a country whose democracy is flawed at best. ------------ Sources: [1] https://www.cbronline.com/what-is/what-is-pla-unit-61398-and-who-are-the-five-chinese-hackers-4271980/ https://www.cbronline.com/what-is/what-is-pla-unit-61398-and... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/apr/11/china-hi-tech-war-on-muslim-minority-xinjiang-uighurs-surveillance-face-recognition https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/apr/11/china-hi-tech-w... [3] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-system-punishments-and-rewards-explained-2018-4/ https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-system-p... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_China#Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_China#Hon... [5] https://futurism.com/the-byte/australia-chinese-lasers-military-pilots https://futurism.com/the-byte/australia-chinese-lasers-milit... [6] https://www.globaldots.com/chinese-spying-chips-found-hidden-on-servers-used-by-us-companies/ https://www.globaldots.com/chinese-spying-chips-found-hidden... [7] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/china-s-quantum-satellite-achieves-spooky-action-record-distance https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/china-s-quantum-sate... [8] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-school-facial-recognition-technology-2018-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/china-school-facial-recognit... [9] https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/speak-no-evil-mass-media-control-contemporary-china https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/speak-no-evi...

beebmam 7y ago

Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China are "China's best minds"? Please, show me some evidence for this egregious claim. There is no such thing as modern Chinese meritocracy.

hyperbovine 7y ago
Important to distinguish between undergrad and graduate here. The "rich kids from China" phenomenon is mainly about undergraduates doing 4-year degrees. This article suggests that Trump wants to crack down on Chinese graduate students, where admission is much more merit based. If true, this is a terrible idea.
- beebmam 7y ago
  Fair enough, good point.
ulfw 7y ago
Neither is there an American one. Wealthy Americans can and have bought their way into Harvard, Stanford et. al. left and right.
Barrin92 7y ago
>Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China are "China's best minds"? As we've seen with the recent scandals (and we also knew before), the wealthiest American attendees are hardly America's best minds either. Don't think this is a problem that only applies to foreign students. If you want to remove wealth advantages for top tier universities I'm all for it, but it's a bad club to use in this debate.
- asdf21 7y ago
  Don't presume a few exceptions in America meritocracy (who drastically overpaid and had to jump through tons of hoops to cheat the system) compare to what is the norm internationally.
7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]