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Only if you want to see the worst in people.
The bribe accepting police is also, in many cases, not doing this out of malice. Police financing in India is pret
Only if you want to see the worst in people.
The bribe accepting police is also, in many cases, not doing this out of malice. Police financing in India is pretty fucked up, and I find it surprising how we have a functioning society with such underfinanced and overworked police, even in the well to do urban areas.
Anyways if you are the police in that situation, it makes much more sense to let the "activist" sort of guy, who has gone to the trouble of procuring such notes, go away and just wait for the next sucker to show up. Creating a scene which will definitely get you attention, and fired/suspended is a more stupider course of action.
> how we have a functioning society with such underfinanced and overworked police, even in the well to do urban areas.
The answer is that we don't.
If we did have better functioning police systems, you would see a lot more growth in a lot of Indian cities. The biggest cities escape the tyranny of local powers simply because people living in these cities accumulate vast financial resources to essentially circumvent Government services (e.g. you will see private guards everywhere, gangs running protection rackets that try to ensure that "Justice" is served etc.).
This lack of basic government services and infrastructure can be crippling, especially to businesses and people looking to make long term investments.
>>Police financing in India is pretty fucked up, and I find it surprising how we have a functioning society with such underfinanced and overworked police, even in the well to do urban areas.
Sorry sir, but this is plain wrong. Only two months back I was stopped by the police for 'fast driving', this is around a corner while I was turning at may be 10 kmph, in fact he just waved his hand in front of me. Irony be damned, it still qualified as 'fast driving' in his rule book- Which I translated as Why do you argue, just give me the money!
He asked for 200. I had no change, so he removed a bundle of notes to give me the change. From what I saw I estimated a good 2 lac worth cash in his pockets. There were three such men, so I guess their Sunday afternoon collection was close to 6 lacs. This is just in one corner, on one day, in an after noon. These people extort 100s of crores this way everyday.
There was a thread on Twitter a while back, where a women journalist reported she had CCTV camera footage where a constable was caught stealing her Honda Activa in the night, in uniform. Police several times in provides information to robbers in a area, if a family is out of the town, while the robbers steal they guard the home and protect while the robbers do their job. They also provide transport and logistics support in share for the theft.
Last decade when the Lokayukta of Karnataka was fairly active, they released a photograph of recovered jewelry from a raid from a inspectors home, a man came forward and reported that the jewelry in the photograph had ornaments stolen from his home a few years back. Beat that.
I hear your ordinary everyday circle inspector these days is worth a few hundred crores. They work hand-in-glove with liquor, land and drug mafia. This ain't even police, this is more like legalized mafia with unlimited powers and no accountability.
These people are not underfunded, these some of the most richest people in India currently. Their earnings are only behind politicians.
> I find it surprising how we have a functioning society with such underfinanced and overworked police, even in the well to do urban areas.
At the risk of being downvoted, I feel compelled to offer a foreigner's perspective here. As a foreigner who has lived in Bangalore, Mysore, Hyderabad, and Mumbai for 2 to 6 months many times, I have to agree with the other commenter that I did not find a functioning society. Things I saw during my visits:
- Cops refusing to file a report after a theft.
- No medical or police help during accidents. It's up to the untrained passers-by to administer some form of first aid and take an injured person to medical care facility.
- Motorcycle riders driving on sidewalks.
- Cars driving on the wrong side of the road.
- Drivers not yielding to pedestrians at crosswalks.
- Tuk-tuks refusing rides in gross violation of government regulations.
- Damage and pilferage of public property in Indian Railways.
- Eunuchs extorting money from unsuspecting people in broad daylight.
Some of these things are not exceptions but the rule. This does not consititute a functioning society per my expectations and standard of living. This is a total breakdown of law, order, civility, decency, and courtesy in society.
>>Some of these things are not exceptions but the rule.
You could be downvoted, the real reason is so many Indians don't even think this is anything wrong. Globalization has presented an opportunity for Indians like me to travel abroad and see how well the systems work outside. For a lot of Indians, something like this is invisible. Often the exposure is to infrastructure seen through Hollywood movies or these days, YouTube.
The 3 years or so I spent in Bay Area,CA literally floored my mind. Things as simple as getting a California State Identity card without bribes, to VTA drivers saying Good morning. Trains run on time, parks are kept clean. People pay taxes, police doesn't ask for bribes, people cleaning up after their dogs in parks. I have even seen emergency services arrive in like minutes in case of accidents in places like Sunnyvale.
Heck when I was there the Santa Clara County was doing some water harvesting project for millions. That's like a small residential area equivalent in Bangalore, the scale and audacity of ambition itself was shocking to me. The contrast being, a place like Koramangala in Bangalore, would probably debate to death to a get a leaf composter and instead burn the leaves and pollute the air around.
1 lac = 100,000;
1 crore = 10,000,000
For the most part, a functioning government is non-existent in India. The primary activity of both the federal/central and state governments in India is theft (through bribes as well as taxes), and being a drag on the economy. It's not unlike a Mafia-run protection racket. If you don't pay bribes or taxes, you either get in trouble, or don't get basic services. A good chunk of the tax revenue is robbed by at various points due to corruption, and rarely does the majority of it actually get used for public services. The fact that the streets of most major Indian cities lay strewn with garbage, is just one testament to the brokenness of public services in India.
Beyond that, the degree to which the governments in India have stifled economic growth and the potential of the country is truly horrifying. Up until around 1990, the governments agenda was perpetual poverty as they made it impossible for people to start businesses, by imposing significant red tape, and requiring regulatory approval for every little thing (look up "License Raj").
>>Up until around 1990, the governments agenda was perpetual poverty as they made it impossible for people to start businesses, by imposing significant red tape, and requiring regulatory approval for almost every little thing. (look up "License Raj").
The more things change, the more they remain same. You can't exactly fix these things with laws. You need to have cultural change at some point in time.
I remember a colleague telling a story about a product company shuttering its offshore center in India. A lot of Indian colleagues stood up and spoke passionately about the benefits and advantages of doing business in India, including access to talent. Apparently the boss in US, he was a CTO just stoop up asked us a simple question:
What do you guys make in India?
It was a fairly simple question, it was a kind of brutal self appraisal, but apart from making soaps and clothing and ball point pens, you really struggle to answer the question. What IP do we build here? and what do we make that we sell, like products? Compare this with any top world economy today like US, China, Germany, UK etc. You begin to realize how far behind we are.
India is all about reselling things we don't make. In this kind of an economy, higher your population, more hands the goods change through. Each person gets a cut, you could linear interpolate this, have a 3 billion population and even exceed US economy. But it will change nothing in people's living standards, or quality, it won't give them quality education or health care, or anything for that matter. Basically numbers look beautiful, while nothing changes on the ground.
Lastly Indian love for bureaucracy and red tape is undying and eternal. This comes from aristocracy and government. People think being management jobs means doing 0 work and having access to slaves who serve them while making big money. Ivy League grads aspire to do MBA's from top colleges. Programmers want to be managers ASAP. Pretty much all my cousins have a distance education MBA. No appetite for engineering.
In short you can't change this with laws. People have to change.
> India is all about reselling things we don't make
Boy, you are a downer! Things are not the best, but they're not all bad either. Here are some important things India makes:
1. Movies - it has the largest (by number of productions) film industry in the world, and third largest by revenue (admittedly the latter is expected and it's third by a fair distance)
2. Satellite launch services - Antrix corporation, run by the Indian government no less.[1] And it makes a profit, what a crazy world we live in!
3. Generic medicines - Largest manufacturer of these in the world[2].
4. Motorcycles - The 2 largest motorcycle manufacturers in the world are Indian companies. [3][4] Are their bikes household names in developed countries today? No, but neither were Honda or Toyota in 1960.
5. Steel and cement - Apparently the 2nd largest steel and cement producer in the world (I didn't know this)[5][6] but also admittedly a long way off first place.
I didn't have the time or patience to research more, but you get the idea.
> What IP do we build here?
Most countries don't produce that much valuable IP in this stage of their growth. That comes later, when the basics - manufacturing, laws, financial systems, transport - have been firmed up. Having said that I'm sure there's a non-zero amount of useful research from the IITs or IIS or ISRO or BARC.
> Compare this with any top world economy today like US, China, Germany, UK etc. You begin to realize how far behind we are.
That's why (apart from China) they're referred to as "developed" countries and India is not.
> Programmers want to be managers ASAP.
You may find that outside the technology industry, it's like that everywhere. Anecdote: a few years ago, I caught up with an old acquaintance (who was raised in the US) working at an American consulting company in the Midwest. When he found out I'm a software engineer in the Bay Area he said "Oh, you're just a programmer." and sounded disappointed.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antrix_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antrix_Corporation
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_industry_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_industry_in_Ind...
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bajaj_Auto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bajaj_Auto
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_MotoCorp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_MotoCorp
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_steel_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_steel_pro...
6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_cement_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_cement_pr...
> The primary activity of both the federal/central and state governments in India is theft (through [...] taxes),
This is just nonsense. Taxation has nothing to do with theft.
> If you don't pay [...] taxes, you either get in trouble, or don't get basic services.
As you should. Not getting in trouble for tax evasion would be a sign of a dysfunctional government.
> A good chunk of the tax revenue is robbed by at various points due to corruption, and rarely does the majority of it actually get used for public services.
> So is this, of course.
Up until around 1990, the governments agenda was perpetual poverty
People who are pointlessly evil, not just egoistic and corrupt, are rare. I don't think the Indian people managed to elect them into government for decades.
Agree with you entirely.
When the British left India, there was officially a transfer of power to the congress party. The first prime minister was appointed by the party. The constitution, the police, the bureaucracy and the court system was inherited by the people.
Unlike the developed world or China or Vietnam, India did not go through a bloody revolution. What that meant is that systems that were explicitly meant to harass and exploit the people is what we have inherited.
India runs two parallel systems, the official system and the traditional system. In the past [up until recently] urbanites [directly or indirectly worked for the govt] who were also the elitists suffered the official system but also benefited from it. The rural masses [80+%] were out of the official system.
Today with greater urbanisation, more and more people not used to the official system and forced to deal with it in their own way. First generation urbanites out number the original city dwellers.
There is a need to have a small government, lower red tape, hopefully the new government which has an overwhelming majority can carry out the overhaul necessary to set things right.
In a way Trump and his trade war can be a good thing and push Indians to realise, that they can not continue being the "source of raw material, cheap labour and a huge captive market" - exactly how the colonist always wanted us to be.
Could you recommend some reading to dive deeper into this narrative?
It is very interesting, reminds me something I couldn't grasp now. Probably some theory about an inherent nature of Russia's failures or something like. But, you know, it is hard to think of such a matters when the main example is your own country, it is hard to keep objectivity. I'd be happy to read about India.
By the way, I believe, that a bloody revolution wouldn't help India to create a different society. Take a Russia as an example: there was revolution of 1917, which overthrown Tzar, but communists came and they built authoritarian state just like in old times. With a Stalin as a dictator instead of Tzar. Tzar was meant to have a God given rights to rule, Stalin had the same rights given him by a proletariat. Even the scale of a corruptions the same, and one of the theories explaining them goes as far as to X century to track the start of bribery as a way to pay wages to government representatives, then bribes were made illegal, but it lasts for a centuries without a much success. Tzar, communists, now "democrats" are all failed to change it.
In 1991 USSR had failed, and there were a failure of a society, but in a few years a new society emerged, then gathered strength and finally we have all the same, the only difference are flags and slogans. We see the return of a God, though for now no one claims yet that Putin is a God given ruler.
The kind state you could build in a society are constrained heavily by a culture of a society (not the painting and architecture, but the culture in almost biological meaning, something that goes from mother to a child, something that is almost as sticky as a genetics). At the same time the culture of a society have a great inertia, you couldn't change it in a few years of a bloody revolution and a civil war.
You’ve diagnosed the problem well, but I don’t understand how that leads to “smaller government” being a solution. In many regards are relate to civic responsibility, India probably needs bigger government. They need it both to enforce the small laws (litter, traffic rules, safety regulations) as well as building the sustained infrastructure to make life more convenient (mass transit to deal with traffic, public housing so people aren’t in slums, sanitation services to clean up after everything, etc.) And then there is the need to create and maintain the public spaces to accommodate all these people, like parks and libraries.
I think both of you are right. We need a smaller existing type of government, and we need a bigger new type of government, which is more answerable to the people.
Consider, for example, the police force. They are not customer (inasmuch as you can call the voter/taxpayer a customer) oriented force; they are a subjugation force. They carry sticks around, which they wield with gay abandon. Many of the forms of power in the current system are meant to keep the people down and subservient.
To continue this example: what we need are fewer state-level (where "state" is the region in question) police, and more local (city-level or district-level) police. We need more power on quality-of-life issues devolved to the local bodies, and less with the state or the feds.
Local control is a double edged sword. It may make them more sensitive to local issues if they’re part of the community, but it can also lead to arbitrary enforcement or non-enforcement from one area to another or between one group or another.
The smaller the political unit, the more likely it is to be dominated by a clique of people. This can lead to corruption, but even in a non-corrupt setting it can lead to racist, casteist, or other kinds of discriminatory decisions about enforcement or resource allocation.
When I say small government - I only meant that the government should lower regulations and simplify laws. In the case of India, I am even in favour of the government stepping in to help fledgling industries, either because the local industry is so far behind or because foreign companies are deliberatly unwilling to be inclusive.
India does not have the ability to enforce - Lacks the resources to police and the diversity prevents uniformity.
Add to that draconian colonial/socialist era laws.
It is hard to enforce anything if you neither have the capacity nor need.
As an old civilisation India has an enormous capacity to self regulate. Compared to say the EU, India is way more diverse yet a single country and not by force.
A sane change would be to have bare-bone laws and swift justice on - property, business, greater personal freedom in education.
Complicated laws only favour the rich, powerful and definitely the corrupt. If the honest thrive, it would be increasingly expensive to be dishonest.
Correct. You just proved what the CTO said, We are experts at replicating X at scale, once some one originally produces X. We didn't invent the video camera, or modern studio tech, or internal combustion engine, even rocket tech, electricity, electronics, medicinal sciences, metallurgy or anything for that matter. Heck we didn't even invent the ball point pen.
We replicate and resell things, we kind of have to, because there are so many people in India and every wants X. Apply this to cement, movies, motorcycles, medicines, pens, pencils, call center employees, human robots, trench and ditch diggers, even baby diapers. We live in a country where the government rolls out schemes for daily labor occupation, to keep them busy by helping them dig with shovels. You can even boast of largest human shovel operators in the world. Heck we are experts are producing more human beings, than any country on earth. You might want to add that to our list of accolades, then take your right hand and pat yourself on your back.
Keep producing more humans like this, eventually we will be largest producers and consumers of everything, diabetes patients to pick pocketers and then we can claim what we always claim, we are the best of the best, put all criticism to rest, join hands and sing Mera Bharat Mahan.
None of this fixes anything because you end up creating more mouths and more hands to change. More deeper human chains to act as middle men. Numbers keep increasing of course, but situation doesn't change much on the ground.
> What do you guys make in India?
> It was a fairly simple question, it was a kind of brutal self appraisal, but apart from making soaps and clothing and ball point pens, you really struggle to answer the question. What IP do we build here? and what do we make that we sell, like products?
Just to add to what others had said:
1. Moser Bauer is (was?) the largest manufacturer of CDs in the world. Sure, few people use CDs anymore these days, but 20 years ago, MB was a giant.
2. Essel Propack is the leader by far of packaging material like the tubes your toothpaste comes in.
3. India had a pivotal role in stopping the AIDS epidemic in Africa. India offered a year's supply of anti-retroviral drugs (for AIDS patients) to Africans for $300/year; companies in the West were demanding 100x as much. Just imagine the number of lives saved thanks to this move alone.
4. Lifestyle ideas like yoga, meditation, vegetarianism are all heavily influenced by India.
5. India had been doing "organic farming" for millennia; Albert Howard learned organic farming techniques from Indian farmers, and spread them in the West. He's known as the "father of modern organic farming". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Howard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Howard