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So, Homebrew? You can't tell me that Microsoft is able to ship entire distribution's userlands (Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE, and more) through the Windows Store, incl

So, Homebrew? You can't tell me that Microsoft is able to ship entire distribution's userlands (Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE, and more) through the Windows Store, including all their GPL3 components, and Apple can't figure out how to ship an updated version of base64. If I'm grumbling, it's just because making devops/CI scripts work on Windows and Linux is easier than MacOS and Linux these days because my colleagues run into issues like "base64" or "uuidgen" having different arguments in the extremely dated MacOS userland, and they then have to brew install a bunch of isolated components.

asdfv09s9d80fu9 7y ago
How's using homebrew any of this different than being able to run "base64" and "uuidgen" on Windows? It's not like either of those applications are part of a Windows installation anyway.
- AaronFriel 7y ago
  That's my point. Why can't Apple ship an updated userland built in, through the Store, or as a download triggered by a command line (like XCode is).
  - oneplane 7y ago
    Because GPL v3 says you have to run modified binaries and that means Apple has to give its private keys.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      No? You just resign the binary with your key.
      - patates 7y ago
        I'm sorry, this is totally off-topic but I had to re-read your comment 5 times until it became apparent that you meant re-sign, not surrender. English is funny sometimes (especially when you're not a native speaker like me:) ).
        saagarjha 7y ago
        It's a good point; I'll keep it in mind when using the word in the future :)
      - oneplane 7y ago
        You can't if the binary is a SIP-protected binary, and you can't use all signing features unless you disable SIP (for certain entitlements AFAIK)
    - AaronFriel 7y ago
      Why do they have to run modified binaries?
      - adrianN 7y ago
        Because that's one of the rights users of GPLv3 software have.
nothrabannosir 7y ago
That’s probably more a BSD vs GNU issue, to be fair. Mac is based on FreeBSD. GNU/Linux, well... :)
- pcr910303 7y ago
  To be exact, FreeBSD and macOS (based on NeXTStep) are both based on BSD, and contribute to each other. FreeBSD came out after NeXTStep was released though...
  - asveikau 7y ago
    True that freebsd is more recent than NeXT, but they re-imported a lot of stuff from more recent freebsd over the years though. Look at a bunch of Apple manpages. Many of them say FreeBSD.
- AaronFriel 7y ago
  Bash is GNU and so is much of the dated MacOS userland.
  - burke 7y ago
    If I recall correctly, much of the MacOS userland is dated because it uses the last GPLv2 releases of various packages before a move to GPLv3.
    - AaronFriel 7y ago
      That's what this thread is about :)
m_mueller 7y ago
I've moved on to Windows since last year. Besides terminal emulators being shit (which they're fixing now), worse PDF support and shit OS config management, there's really not much anymore that goes in favor of Macs. Their laptops are worthless junk at 40% markup, the OS gets buggier and more locked down with every version while Windows is on a clear trajectory of improvement and PC hardware gives real choice and innovative solutions. I was a Mac user for 13 years, but no more. Since they gave all the keys to Jony it went down the drain real fast.
- lazerlapin 7y ago
  how about screen management ? I'm using several virtual screens (spaces) in my mac, that makes things a lot easier to me. How does that go in today's windows?
- jxi 7y ago
  Those seem like pretty big downsides to me, and I don't believe the new terminal marketing gimmick. I will admit Windows has been very attractive lately for gaming reasons, but from a development standpoint, MacOS still seems way ahead of Windows. I seriously considered it, but there would be too much I'd miss if I switched. There's some minor reasons too, like why does IntelliJ look ugly in Windows? It looks great in both Mac and Linux.
  - 72deluxe 7y ago
    "from a development standpoint, MacOS still seems way ahead of Windows" Sorry but have you heard of Visual Studio?
    - oneplane 7y ago
      Everyone has heard of Visual Studio, and nobody that has to use it wants to. Just because you have Stockholm syndrome doesn't mean everyone else has to have it too ;-)
      - 72deluxe 7y ago
pjmlp 7y ago
That is nothing compared to writing portable UNIX scripts during the UNIX wars. Having to deal with three variants is relatively simple. Now having to deal with DG/UX, Aix, Tru64, SGI, HP-UX, Solaris, BSD and the new incumbent Linux, that was fun.
- imglorp 7y ago
  Yup, and then down in the code, it was #ifdef's up to your eyeballs[1], even if you went all the way and used autoconf/configure and then... more #ifdefs. And we can tell our kids we had this thing called endianness which showed up in structure packing, system calls, network byte ordering, and hopefully portable binary file formats. Thankfully we had RPC and IDL to save us from that mess... not. Oh and don't forget the windowing system war on top of the Unix war, all with different desktop and library concepts: CDE, Motif, Openwin, NeWS, DM, X11 and X10 at least. One compatibility honorable mention goes to Apollo for at least making an attempt at flavor normalization: you could have an env var that would resolve a symlink at every file access near the top of the filesystem, where there would be a collection of different BSD/SystemV/Aegis(?) all running at once. [2] 1. https://maultech.com/chrislott/resources/cstyle/ifdefs.pdf https://maultech.com/chrislott/resources/cstyle/ifdefs.pdf 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain/OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain/OS
  - stefan_ 7y ago
    Funny you should mention RPC because of course RPC was all the rage back in 1993, with the heap of garbage they called DCE/RPC. To this date, this is the only network protocol I have ever seen that not only allowed you to choose the endianness you will use in the header, but also the floating point format.
    - rbanffy 7y ago
      The joys of CORBA and COM!
- rbanffy 7y ago
  > Now having to deal with DG/UX, Aix, Tru64, SGI, HP-UX, Solaris, BSD and the new incumbent Linux, that was fun. Don't forget AIX/ESA (a weird beast), NextSTEP (which is still with us, in disguise), the HPC crowd (UNICOS, OSF/1 AD...), SINIX (my first contact with the internet, thanks to Siemens/Nixdorf)...

asdfv09s9d80fu9 7y ago

How's using homebrew any of this different than being able to run "base64" and "uuidgen" on Windows? It's not like either of those applications are part of a Windows installation anyway.

AaronFriel 7y ago
That's my point. Why can't Apple ship an updated userland built in, through the Store, or as a download triggered by a command line (like XCode is).
- oneplane 7y ago
  Because GPL v3 says you have to run modified binaries and that means Apple has to give its private keys.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    No? You just resign the binary with your key.
    - patates 7y ago
      I'm sorry, this is totally off-topic but I had to re-read your comment 5 times until it became apparent that you meant re-sign, not surrender. English is funny sometimes (especially when you're not a native speaker like me:) ).
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        It's a good point; I'll keep it in mind when using the word in the future :)
    - oneplane 7y ago
      You can't if the binary is a SIP-protected binary, and you can't use all signing features unless you disable SIP (for certain entitlements AFAIK)
  - AaronFriel 7y ago
    Why do they have to run modified binaries?
    - adrianN 7y ago
      Because that's one of the rights users of GPLv3 software have.

nothrabannosir 7y ago

That’s probably more a BSD vs GNU issue, to be fair. Mac is based on FreeBSD. GNU/Linux, well... :)

pcr910303 7y ago
To be exact, FreeBSD and macOS (based on NeXTStep) are both based on BSD, and contribute to each other. FreeBSD came out after NeXTStep was released though...
- asveikau 7y ago
  True that freebsd is more recent than NeXT, but they re-imported a lot of stuff from more recent freebsd over the years though. Look at a bunch of Apple manpages. Many of them say FreeBSD.
AaronFriel 7y ago
Bash is GNU and so is much of the dated MacOS userland.
- burke 7y ago
  If I recall correctly, much of the MacOS userland is dated because it uses the last GPLv2 releases of various packages before a move to GPLv3.
  - AaronFriel 7y ago
    That's what this thread is about :)

m_mueller 7y ago

I've moved on to Windows since last year. Besides terminal emulators being shit (which they're fixing now), worse PDF support and shit OS config management, there's really not much anymore that goes in favor of Macs. Their laptops are worthless junk at 40% markup, the OS gets buggier and more locked down with every version while Windows is on a clear trajectory of improvement and PC hardware gives real choice and innovative solutions. I was a Mac user for 13 years, but no more. Since they gave all the keys to Jony it went down the drain real fast.

lazerlapin 7y ago
how about screen management ? I'm using several virtual screens (spaces) in my mac, that makes things a lot easier to me. How does that go in today's windows?
jxi 7y ago
Those seem like pretty big downsides to me, and I don't believe the new terminal marketing gimmick. I will admit Windows has been very attractive lately for gaming reasons, but from a development standpoint, MacOS still seems way ahead of Windows. I seriously considered it, but there would be too much I'd miss if I switched. There's some minor reasons too, like why does IntelliJ look ugly in Windows? It looks great in both Mac and Linux.
- 72deluxe 7y ago
  "from a development standpoint, MacOS still seems way ahead of Windows" Sorry but have you heard of Visual Studio?
  - oneplane 7y ago
    Everyone has heard of Visual Studio, and nobody that has to use it wants to. Just because you have Stockholm syndrome doesn't mean everyone else has to have it too ;-)
    - 72deluxe 7y ago

pjmlp 7y ago

That is nothing compared to writing portable UNIX scripts during the UNIX wars. Having to deal with three variants is relatively simple. Now having to deal with DG/UX, Aix, Tru64, SGI, HP-UX, Solaris, BSD and the new incumbent Linux, that was fun.

imglorp 7y ago
Yup, and then down in the code, it was #ifdef's up to your eyeballs[1], even if you went all the way and used autoconf/configure and then... more #ifdefs. And we can tell our kids we had this thing called endianness which showed up in structure packing, system calls, network byte ordering, and hopefully portable binary file formats. Thankfully we had RPC and IDL to save us from that mess... not. Oh and don't forget the windowing system war on top of the Unix war, all with different desktop and library concepts: CDE, Motif, Openwin, NeWS, DM, X11 and X10 at least. One compatibility honorable mention goes to Apollo for at least making an attempt at flavor normalization: you could have an env var that would resolve a symlink at every file access near the top of the filesystem, where there would be a collection of different BSD/SystemV/Aegis(?) all running at once. [2] 1. https://maultech.com/chrislott/resources/cstyle/ifdefs.pdf https://maultech.com/chrislott/resources/cstyle/ifdefs.pdf 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain/OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain/OS
- stefan_ 7y ago
  Funny you should mention RPC because of course RPC was all the rage back in 1993, with the heap of garbage they called DCE/RPC. To this date, this is the only network protocol I have ever seen that not only allowed you to choose the endianness you will use in the header, but also the floating point format.
  - rbanffy 7y ago
    The joys of CORBA and COM!
rbanffy 7y ago
> Now having to deal with DG/UX, Aix, Tru64, SGI, HP-UX, Solaris, BSD and the new incumbent Linux, that was fun. Don't forget AIX/ESA (a weird beast), NextSTEP (which is still with us, in disguise), the HPC crowd (UNICOS, OSF/1 AD...), SINIX (my first contact with the internet, thanks to Siemens/Nixdorf)...