4 ms·

I don't really understand the licensing issues that well, but if what the poster above you said is true, I wouldn't really want to have to sign software that sh

I don't really understand the licensing issues that well, but if what the poster above you said is true, I wouldn't really want to have to sign software that ships with my computer when it should just run out of the box.

musicale 7y ago
I don't understand why GPLv3 would be a problem on macOS. On macOS, you can run anything out of the box (depending on security/gatekeeper settings) and you can replace or modify system executables (such as /bin/bash) if you turn off SIP (which is slightly tricky to do but can be done from recovery mode.) Running your own customized /usr/local/bin/bash is easy of course, and package managers like MacPorts or Brew make it simple to install various shells including the latest bash. On iOS, however, there might be an issue, as you have to sign executables with XCode, but unfortunately Apple reduced free developer provisioning profiles from one year down to two weeks in order to block third-party app stores and malware, and to get more people to sign up for the paid developer program. Moreover, there is also no Apple-sanctioned way to modify system executables that I am aware of.
- 1over137 7y ago
  Did you notice how many qualifiers you had there? The trend on macOS is clear: harder and harder to run/do anything that isn't blessed by Apple.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    SIP and Gatekeeper and one-time commands. I find disabling SIP to be much less painful than enabling unsigned drivers in Windows. I wouldn't even classify turning off SIP as "slightly tricky". You boot into recovery mode, open the terminal, type in two words, and press enter. Besides, this is separate from the GPLv3 question. You can absolutely recompile bash and replace macOS's version with your own, so I don't understand why this is a problem for Apple.
    - dcbadacd 7y ago
      The "You must release changes"-clause and anti-tivoization clause might be not be enough individually to switch to MIT zsh but probably were together good enough reasons for Apple to switch.
      - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        Why? How does this affect them on macOS at all? If Bash were also being used on iOS that would be different, but I'm quite confident that will never happen.
        1over137 7y ago
        Again, perhaps it is because Apple is planning for a future where SIP and Gatekeeper cannot be turned off. A future where macOS is basically reduced/merged to iPadOS. Time will tell.
        musicale 7y ago
        I expect Macs in enterprise/education are locked down so that Gatekeeper and SIP can't be turned off by normal users. But preventing ALL Macs from turning off Gatekeeper and SIP? I think that would be unpopular.
        Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        A company or school can already do this easily, by the way, by setting a boot-loader password and restricting admin access. Notably, this are normal macOS functions, you don't need a fancy mtm setup.
        dcbadacd 7y ago
        That would violate GPLv3, wouldn't it?
michaelmrose 7y ago
I don't think the prior poster is suggesting that you would have to sign existing software. I believe that they are suggesting that Apple would be required to let you sign your own software if you do choose and give owners the right to opt to have their os trust software they OR Apple signed. There is something that was addressed in the gpl community called tivoization. Tivos dvrs were Linux boxes wherein they shared their source technically complying with the letter of the gpl but in fact locking them down so users couldn't modify the devices violating to many peoples mind the spirit and clearly expressed intent of the license. This is if I understand correctly dealt with in gpl 3 which is what I think the poster is talking about. Apple ios devices are non free in the same fashion as Tivos which is incompatible with gpl3
- musicale 7y ago
  This only seems to be an issue for iOS and its derivatives. You can replace /bin/bash on macOS if you turn SIP off.

musicale 7y ago

I don't understand why GPLv3 would be a problem on macOS. On macOS, you can run anything out of the box (depending on security/gatekeeper settings) and you can replace or modify system executables (such as /bin/bash) if you turn off SIP (which is slightly tricky to do but can be done from recovery mode.) Running your own customized /usr/local/bin/bash is easy of course, and package managers like MacPorts or Brew make it simple to install various shells including the latest bash. On iOS, however, there might be an issue, as you have to sign executables with XCode, but unfortunately Apple reduced free developer provisioning profiles from one year down to two weeks in order to block third-party app stores and malware, and to get more people to sign up for the paid developer program. Moreover, there is also no Apple-sanctioned way to modify system executables that I am aware of.

1over137 7y ago
Did you notice how many qualifiers you had there? The trend on macOS is clear: harder and harder to run/do anything that isn't blessed by Apple.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  SIP and Gatekeeper and one-time commands. I find disabling SIP to be much less painful than enabling unsigned drivers in Windows. I wouldn't even classify turning off SIP as "slightly tricky". You boot into recovery mode, open the terminal, type in two words, and press enter. Besides, this is separate from the GPLv3 question. You can absolutely recompile bash and replace macOS's version with your own, so I don't understand why this is a problem for Apple.
  - dcbadacd 7y ago
    The "You must release changes"-clause and anti-tivoization clause might be not be enough individually to switch to MIT zsh but probably were together good enough reasons for Apple to switch.
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      Why? How does this affect them on macOS at all? If Bash were also being used on iOS that would be different, but I'm quite confident that will never happen.
      - 1over137 7y ago
        Again, perhaps it is because Apple is planning for a future where SIP and Gatekeeper cannot be turned off. A future where macOS is basically reduced/merged to iPadOS. Time will tell.
        musicale 7y ago
        I expect Macs in enterprise/education are locked down so that Gatekeeper and SIP can't be turned off by normal users. But preventing ALL Macs from turning off Gatekeeper and SIP? I think that would be unpopular.
        Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        A company or school can already do this easily, by the way, by setting a boot-loader password and restricting admin access. Notably, this are normal macOS functions, you don't need a fancy mtm setup.
        dcbadacd 7y ago
        That would violate GPLv3, wouldn't it?

michaelmrose 7y ago

I don't think the prior poster is suggesting that you would have to sign existing software. I believe that they are suggesting that Apple would be required to let you sign your own software if you do choose and give owners the right to opt to have their os trust software they OR Apple signed. There is something that was addressed in the gpl community called tivoization. Tivos dvrs were Linux boxes wherein they shared their source technically complying with the letter of the gpl but in fact locking them down so users couldn't modify the devices violating to many peoples mind the spirit and clearly expressed intent of the license. This is if I understand correctly dealt with in gpl 3 which is what I think the poster is talking about. Apple ios devices are non free in the same fashion as Tivos which is incompatible with gpl3

musicale 7y ago
This only seems to be an issue for iOS and its derivatives. You can replace /bin/bash on macOS if you turn SIP off.