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It's unfortunate that the culture in the US is so deprived of compassion and so focused on the "punish first" reaction to anything outside of the ordinary that

It's unfortunate that the culture in the US is so deprived of compassion and so focused on the "punish first" reaction to anything outside of the ordinary that it will be difficult if not impossible to get anything like this solution adopted. It's plan to see, even in the comments in this forum so many are really quick to jump to "but mental illness..." "but drugs..." etc... It makes me sad to realize this is unlikely to change during my lifetime.

adammichaelc 7y ago
The data disagrees. It can happen in the US. It _did_ happen in the US. “Utah reduced chronic homelessness by 91%. Here’s how” https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chroni...
- luckydata 7y ago
  I'm glad to learn that. It's also not a surprise it's been tried in Utah of all places.
- 8bitsrule 7y ago
  Beautiful. Homes for the home-less, who'da thought that'd work better than spending $25K/capita pushing them around all year long? "... housing comes first, services later. Clients do have to pay some rent — either 30 percent of income or up to $50 a month, whichever is greater." And those homes don't have to be big, sprawling, 1000-footers either. An address, bathing, electric, a share in the cost ... is a leg up and a way to escape the terrors. Has to be a hell of a relief.
linuxftw 7y ago
US public housing projects are some of the most dangerous places on the planet. We need to give the common person a path out of poverty that doesn't involve higher education. Once those people are able to move up the ladder, those at the very bottom (homeless) will be able to move up as well.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  > (some) US public housing projects are some of the most dangerous places on the planet. So we shouldn't put homeless there (because the street is better) We can address this topic when everyone is much richer. There are things in your argument that are implicit, but you left out or it would reduce your argument. I added those implicit things back in so that the full argument has to be addressed for what it is.
- yardie 7y ago
  > US public housing projects are some of the most dangerous places on the planet. Hyperbole, but go on. To hear it from some people the 5,000 people that died during 9/11 was the worst thing to happen to humanity, ever. > We need to give the common person a path out of poverty that doesn't involve higher education. Like a .................... living wage? That's not very popular with the law and order crowd. > Once those people are able to move up the ladder, those at the very bottom (homeless) will be able to move up as well. A nation of 180 million able bodied Americans can only tackle one task at a time. We are incapable of chewing gum and walking. The buffer will overflow!
4ntonius8lock 7y ago
The sad thing is that the right thing to do is generally also the logical thing to do. Housing homeless is less costly than providing jails + ambulances + other services needed when people are on the street. The data is all there, but people will use sophism to make arguments that are either not proven, or that have been actively disproved. I mean, many arguments against helping the poor can be boiled down to: 'it isn't good enough, so let them rot'.
- badpun 7y ago
  There's a moral hazard there though - if we're housing homeless for free, then why buy/rent a house, when you can just declare yourself homeless and live in one for free?
  - Bakary 7y ago
    Doesn't really work like that though. In the Utah example, it was "experience years of homelessness and other problems" then you get your house. Hardly a great choice of lifestyle.
    - badpun 7y ago
      There's a youtube channel where a guy interviews homeless people. A lot of them just chose to live on the streets over the the pressures of making rent money in a job. They chose to check out of society. If there's a program that says "live on the street for 3 years and you get a free flat", I'm betting it would be an ok deal for some.
      - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
        Not everyone experiences pressures the same. Especially after trauma. I know for me the stress of earning rent is WAY, WAY orders of magnitude less than living on the street. For many people it is that way, that is why they choose not to. Most people on the street don't want to be there (though you wouldn't know it, they are working poor who mostly sleep in their cars, what you see as homeless is only a small percentage of homeless) You could experience trauma too. It can change anyone. A little empathy goes a long way.
refurb 7y ago
The majority of Americans I know have a lot of compassion for the homeless. They’d prefer they be helped, but our gov’t has yet to find a solution. Of course some people have a negative opinion of the homeless due to negative interactions - being scammed, not really homeless, taking advantage of people.
- luckydata 7y ago
  Does that compassion extend to anything more substantial than "aww, poor them" or donating a few bucks and into sustaining meaningful change in the way we deal with the issue?
- kljhsdfkhjdf 7y ago
  > our gov’t has yet to find a solution. Then why don't they do something about that? Because it might increase their taxes. And god forbid a red-blooded American pays 1% more tax on the income from their hard-earned jetski dealership... They care, but they certainly don't care enough to do anything about it, and the government is a symptom of that. Isn't the US supposed to be a 'democracy'? Why can't the government be fixed?
mladenkovacevic 7y ago
I always wonder if Puritanical roots in US have something to do with it. There seems to be a general belief that people "get only what they deserve". The belief that evil and misfortune comes from within each of us and some cosmic scale is constantly judging whether each person's demons are getting the better of them. These beliefs also carried through to capitalism where individuals who out-exploit and out-hoard everyone else are able to claim most of the rewards of society but any accountability for failing is also placed on individuals who just didn't "work hard enough", or didn't "want it badly enough", weren't "strong enough". Basically if you have any genetic propensity for addictive behavior, mental illness or self-destructive behaviour, belong to a group that's discriminated against, were born in poverty or with parents who didn't have the means or the time to raise you "properly", it's nobody's fault but your own and society doesn't owe you any help, support or compassion. A very heartless and cruel culture that'll ultimately cause our stagnation and eventual downfall.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- effie 7y ago
  > cruel culture that'll ultimately cause our stagnation and eventual downfall I am not sure. Cruel, yes. But it is the 'survival of the fittest' attitude, which although cruel, is natural.
  - mladenkovacevic 7y ago
    Well it's natural given the circumstances in which we exist (fighting for scraps under a perpetuated myth of scarcity). You could say "Well, humans are just animals and we were always fighting for scraps so this is our natural state". But humans only thrived and evolved because we were so good at adapting to changes. So if now our social and economic reality is artificially rigged by those with wealth and power to stagnate everyone in some paleolithic struggle for survival, instead of being allowed to enjoy the true fruits of our advancement as a species, how natural is it really? And are we being deprived of the next step of our evolution because of the resistance to keep leveling the playing field for everyone instead of the few. I'm not a scientist so I don't know the answers to any of these. I actually sort of believe in the idea of arrow of time so literally everything "is natural" and unavoidable. It is natural that the "few" have wrestled control of resources from the "many". And maybe it is natural that this goes on forever.. but it's just as likely or even more likely that it doesn't go on. I'm not so interested in what is cruel and what is not (although I certainly want everyone to prosper and lead a life of fulfillment and meaning). But life of any kind is such a rare thing in the universe and keeping it going seems to be a dance on the sword's edge. So I'm more interested in what is better for ensuring that life just keeps going, rather than keeps going under a set of pleasant circumstances.
hestipod 7y ago
It doesn't just make me sad, it enrages me. I did everything I was "supposed" to and still lost. I usually avoid making any political statements because it just causes fights and solves nothing, but its just wrong how we treat each other. My life is really miserable through no fault of my own and I am on the verge of losing it entirely. I am terrified of ending up on the streets, would not survive it, and never imagined it possible before. Living in the US Midwest I hear constantly how people in need are leeches and lazy and should just "work harder" etc. A major part of my hopelessness is the cultural norm and beliefs of the people I have to be around, and I have to be around them because I cannot manage to be anywhere else after my life was stolen. Some people are born empathetic, but culture has such a strong effect on how people view others than in many cases even when they suffer themselves they still cannot see the reality and continue to victim blame and rationalize. I hate the egos and excuses that come out every time the topic comes up. I hate how there aren't basic social protections like the rest of the first world has...housing, healthcare, humane things. I am tired of all of it and have failed to get anywhere better for me permanently because of the same reasons that put me here in the first place. It's a trap once you get in it in the USA. It only goes downhill for the overwhelming majority who find themselves here.

adammichaelc 7y ago

The data disagrees. It can happen in the US. It _did_ happen in the US. “Utah reduced chronic homelessness by 91%. Here’s how” https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chroni...

luckydata 7y ago
I'm glad to learn that. It's also not a surprise it's been tried in Utah of all places.
8bitsrule 7y ago
Beautiful. Homes for the home-less, who'da thought that'd work better than spending $25K/capita pushing them around all year long? "... housing comes first, services later. Clients do have to pay some rent — either 30 percent of income or up to $50 a month, whichever is greater." And those homes don't have to be big, sprawling, 1000-footers either. An address, bathing, electric, a share in the cost ... is a leg up and a way to escape the terrors. Has to be a hell of a relief.

linuxftw 7y ago

US public housing projects are some of the most dangerous places on the planet. We need to give the common person a path out of poverty that doesn't involve higher education. Once those people are able to move up the ladder, those at the very bottom (homeless) will be able to move up as well.

4ntonius8lock 7y ago
> (some) US public housing projects are some of the most dangerous places on the planet. So we shouldn't put homeless there (because the street is better) We can address this topic when everyone is much richer. There are things in your argument that are implicit, but you left out or it would reduce your argument. I added those implicit things back in so that the full argument has to be addressed for what it is.
yardie 7y ago
> US public housing projects are some of the most dangerous places on the planet. Hyperbole, but go on. To hear it from some people the 5,000 people that died during 9/11 was the worst thing to happen to humanity, ever. > We need to give the common person a path out of poverty that doesn't involve higher education. Like a .................... living wage? That's not very popular with the law and order crowd. > Once those people are able to move up the ladder, those at the very bottom (homeless) will be able to move up as well. A nation of 180 million able bodied Americans can only tackle one task at a time. We are incapable of chewing gum and walking. The buffer will overflow!

4ntonius8lock 7y ago

The sad thing is that the right thing to do is generally also the logical thing to do. Housing homeless is less costly than providing jails + ambulances + other services needed when people are on the street. The data is all there, but people will use sophism to make arguments that are either not proven, or that have been actively disproved. I mean, many arguments against helping the poor can be boiled down to: 'it isn't good enough, so let them rot'.

badpun 7y ago
There's a moral hazard there though - if we're housing homeless for free, then why buy/rent a house, when you can just declare yourself homeless and live in one for free?
- Bakary 7y ago
  Doesn't really work like that though. In the Utah example, it was "experience years of homelessness and other problems" then you get your house. Hardly a great choice of lifestyle.
  - badpun 7y ago
    There's a youtube channel where a guy interviews homeless people. A lot of them just chose to live on the streets over the the pressures of making rent money in a job. They chose to check out of society. If there's a program that says "live on the street for 3 years and you get a free flat", I'm betting it would be an ok deal for some.
    - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
      Not everyone experiences pressures the same. Especially after trauma. I know for me the stress of earning rent is WAY, WAY orders of magnitude less than living on the street. For many people it is that way, that is why they choose not to. Most people on the street don't want to be there (though you wouldn't know it, they are working poor who mostly sleep in their cars, what you see as homeless is only a small percentage of homeless) You could experience trauma too. It can change anyone. A little empathy goes a long way.

refurb 7y ago

The majority of Americans I know have a lot of compassion for the homeless. They’d prefer they be helped, but our gov’t has yet to find a solution. Of course some people have a negative opinion of the homeless due to negative interactions - being scammed, not really homeless, taking advantage of people.

luckydata 7y ago
Does that compassion extend to anything more substantial than "aww, poor them" or donating a few bucks and into sustaining meaningful change in the way we deal with the issue?
kljhsdfkhjdf 7y ago
> our gov’t has yet to find a solution. Then why don't they do something about that? Because it might increase their taxes. And god forbid a red-blooded American pays 1% more tax on the income from their hard-earned jetski dealership... They care, but they certainly don't care enough to do anything about it, and the government is a symptom of that. Isn't the US supposed to be a 'democracy'? Why can't the government be fixed?

mladenkovacevic 7y ago

I always wonder if Puritanical roots in US have something to do with it. There seems to be a general belief that people "get only what they deserve". The belief that evil and misfortune comes from within each of us and some cosmic scale is constantly judging whether each person's demons are getting the better of them. These beliefs also carried through to capitalism where individuals who out-exploit and out-hoard everyone else are able to claim most of the rewards of society but any accountability for failing is also placed on individuals who just didn't "work hard enough", or didn't "want it badly enough", weren't "strong enough". Basically if you have any genetic propensity for addictive behavior, mental illness or self-destructive behaviour, belong to a group that's discriminated against, were born in poverty or with parents who didn't have the means or the time to raise you "properly", it's nobody's fault but your own and society doesn't owe you any help, support or compassion. A very heartless and cruel culture that'll ultimately cause our stagnation and eventual downfall.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
effie 7y ago
> cruel culture that'll ultimately cause our stagnation and eventual downfall I am not sure. Cruel, yes. But it is the 'survival of the fittest' attitude, which although cruel, is natural.
- mladenkovacevic 7y ago
  Well it's natural given the circumstances in which we exist (fighting for scraps under a perpetuated myth of scarcity). You could say "Well, humans are just animals and we were always fighting for scraps so this is our natural state". But humans only thrived and evolved because we were so good at adapting to changes. So if now our social and economic reality is artificially rigged by those with wealth and power to stagnate everyone in some paleolithic struggle for survival, instead of being allowed to enjoy the true fruits of our advancement as a species, how natural is it really? And are we being deprived of the next step of our evolution because of the resistance to keep leveling the playing field for everyone instead of the few. I'm not a scientist so I don't know the answers to any of these. I actually sort of believe in the idea of arrow of time so literally everything "is natural" and unavoidable. It is natural that the "few" have wrestled control of resources from the "many". And maybe it is natural that this goes on forever.. but it's just as likely or even more likely that it doesn't go on. I'm not so interested in what is cruel and what is not (although I certainly want everyone to prosper and lead a life of fulfillment and meaning). But life of any kind is such a rare thing in the universe and keeping it going seems to be a dance on the sword's edge. So I'm more interested in what is better for ensuring that life just keeps going, rather than keeps going under a set of pleasant circumstances.

hestipod 7y ago

It doesn't just make me sad, it enrages me. I did everything I was "supposed" to and still lost. I usually avoid making any political statements because it just causes fights and solves nothing, but its just wrong how we treat each other. My life is really miserable through no fault of my own and I am on the verge of losing it entirely. I am terrified of ending up on the streets, would not survive it, and never imagined it possible before. Living in the US Midwest I hear constantly how people in need are leeches and lazy and should just "work harder" etc. A major part of my hopelessness is the cultural norm and beliefs of the people I have to be around, and I have to be around them because I cannot manage to be anywhere else after my life was stolen. Some people are born empathetic, but culture has such a strong effect on how people view others than in many cases even when they suffer themselves they still cannot see the reality and continue to victim blame and rationalize. I hate the egos and excuses that come out every time the topic comes up. I hate how there aren't basic social protections like the rest of the first world has...housing, healthcare, humane things. I am tired of all of it and have failed to get anywhere better for me permanently because of the same reasons that put me here in the first place. It's a trap once you get in it in the USA. It only goes downhill for the overwhelming majority who find themselves here.