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The issue is that protected bike lanes are not designed for you or me, I prefer riding in traffic, too. They are designed for people with less active riding sty

The issue is that protected bike lanes are not designed for you or me, I prefer riding in traffic, too. They are designed for people with less active riding styles. Elderly people, kids, women. For them the trade off works: spend a little more time on turns and crossings, be safe from cars overtaking close. In the end, it doesn’t even really matter if their fear is rational or not, it prevents that demographic from cycling. And to be an effective mode of transport, cycling needs to feel safe for everyone. The Dutch have that figured out.

ultrarunner 7y ago
You're probably right, which further underscores GP's position. At least where I am there are zero elderly people or kids riding in protected bike lanes. Older folks simply do not ride outside retirement parks in any appreciable capacity, and children are ostensibly not allowed to ride outside their residential neighborhoods. I'm afraid that continuing to design infrastructure in favor of groups who have no interest in it will result in a whole lot of wasted effort without solving any problems.
- Xylakant 7y ago
  They entire point is that these groups have no interest in cycling because there’s no infrastructure that makes them feel sufficiently safe. And the goal is to change that.
atg_gcg_aca_aca 7y ago
Uhhh... women?
- Xylakant 7y ago
  Yes women. They’re an underrepresented demographic among cyclists where bike infrastructure is lacking. Here’s stats for the UK for example https://www.cyclinguk.org/statistics https://www.cyclinguk.org/statistics here’s an article discussing the topic https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2019/mar/08/how-to-get-more-women-cycling-in-cities https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2019/mar/0... Here’s data for SF https://w4c.org/case-study/women-and-biking-case-study-use-san-francisco-bike-lanes https://w4c.org/case-study/women-and-biking-case-study-use-s...
  - atg_gcg_aca_aca 7y ago
    > (Bike lanes) are designed for people with less active riding styles. Elderly people, kids, women. Agreed women are underrepresented, but I don't think your statement is helping change the perception that women aren't real cyclists. Bike lanes are designed for people with less active riding style. Elderly people, kids, women, and men.
    - Xylakant 7y ago
      > I don't think your statement is helping change the perception that women aren't real cyclists If that’s what you read in my statement I apologize. It’s not what I intended to say. Let me try and rephrase that somewhat more coherent: The current level of infrastructure fails certain demographics more than others, chiefly among them young, elderly and women. It’s not a fault of those demographics, it’s a failure to build inclusive infrastructure. They’re all reals cyclists. Women especially also have to suffer from substantial amounts of (verbal) abuse in the streets, especially when cycling and when cycling in what’s regarded as a dominant cycling style (in the middle of the road, preventing close passes etc.) The push for roads as shared space is very (sporty) male dominated and even though I’m part of that group, I’d prefer if we’d give up that push and strive for infrastructure that serves more people better. (Like the Dutch do)
u801e 7y ago
> The Dutch have that figured out. The problem is that the vast majority of motorists do not have significant experience riding a bicycle, so they don't know where to look for cyclists and will end up colliding with them when they pop out from behind parked cars within 30 feet of the intersection (when traveling at 20 feet per second).
- stefs 7y ago
  i can confirm this from my own experience. didn't use a bike to get around the city for years, but once i started, my (car) driving style changed noticeably. for example, i do a lot more shoulder checks to the right. i'm a very fast cyclist and sometimes overtake drivers on the right (when riding in the bike lane). some drivers can't fathom a cyclist being faster than them. the other thing is mirror checks when opening the car door. i even started to reprimand other drivers or passengers (depending on my role) for not checking. even though i'm riding fast i'm trying to be safety conscious and always assume a driver in a dangerous spot hasn't seen me; this is impossible for suddenly opening car doors.
  - u801e 7y ago
    > once i started [cycling], my (car) driving style changed noticeably. for example, i do a lot more shoulder checks to the right. What I'll do is move further to the right when preparing to make a right turn in order to prevent cyclists from passing on the right. As a cyclist, I won't pass other vehicles on the right if there's a possibility that they could make a right turn, or a car from the opposite direction could make a left through a gap of stopped traffic, or a car approaching on the intersecting road on my right may not see me before pulling out. > i'm trying to be safety conscious and always assume a driver in a dangerous spot hasn't seen me; this is impossible for suddenly opening car doors. You can avoid opening car doors by riding at least 6 feet away from parked cars. I ignore door zine bike lanes and just ride in the center of the rightmost general purpose lane. Faster traffic can change lanes to pass me.
- Xylakant 7y ago
  The Dutch have that figured out, too. There’s so many bicycles around that you practically have to expect them everywhere any time. More bicycles make all bicycles safer. Intersections of car lanes and bike lines should also be designed in such a fashion that the lanes meet mostly at a right angle. Sharp turns and buffer spaces. A sharp turn slows the car traffic and the right angle at the intersecting point makes it easy to check for crossing (cycle) traffic. See for example this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA
tropo 7y ago
We really do have two kinds of cyclists, and we're unjustly forcing them to follow the same rules. We chose to treat bicycles more like cars than like pedestrians, to the detriment of less-capable cyclists who care to follow the law. We probably ought to offer and require license plates (tags) for people who wish to ride with the cars. Licensing would be as for a motorcycle, plus a requirement to demonstrate speed and acceleration. The plates could be colored by performance, indicating what roads may be used. Unlicensed riders, plus those not displaying their license plate, would have a low speed limit and would be restricted to low-speed roads. They would also be allowed on sidewalks as long as they are going slow.

ultrarunner 7y ago

You're probably right, which further underscores GP's position. At least where I am there are zero elderly people or kids riding in protected bike lanes. Older folks simply do not ride outside retirement parks in any appreciable capacity, and children are ostensibly not allowed to ride outside their residential neighborhoods. I'm afraid that continuing to design infrastructure in favor of groups who have no interest in it will result in a whole lot of wasted effort without solving any problems.

Xylakant 7y ago
They entire point is that these groups have no interest in cycling because there’s no infrastructure that makes them feel sufficiently safe. And the goal is to change that.

atg_gcg_aca_aca 7y ago

Uhhh... women?

Xylakant 7y ago
Yes women. They’re an underrepresented demographic among cyclists where bike infrastructure is lacking. Here’s stats for the UK for example https://www.cyclinguk.org/statistics https://www.cyclinguk.org/statistics here’s an article discussing the topic https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2019/mar/08/how-to-get-more-women-cycling-in-cities https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2019/mar/0... Here’s data for SF https://w4c.org/case-study/women-and-biking-case-study-use-san-francisco-bike-lanes https://w4c.org/case-study/women-and-biking-case-study-use-s...
- atg_gcg_aca_aca 7y ago
  > (Bike lanes) are designed for people with less active riding styles. Elderly people, kids, women. Agreed women are underrepresented, but I don't think your statement is helping change the perception that women aren't real cyclists. Bike lanes are designed for people with less active riding style. Elderly people, kids, women, and men.
  - Xylakant 7y ago
    > I don't think your statement is helping change the perception that women aren't real cyclists If that’s what you read in my statement I apologize. It’s not what I intended to say. Let me try and rephrase that somewhat more coherent: The current level of infrastructure fails certain demographics more than others, chiefly among them young, elderly and women. It’s not a fault of those demographics, it’s a failure to build inclusive infrastructure. They’re all reals cyclists. Women especially also have to suffer from substantial amounts of (verbal) abuse in the streets, especially when cycling and when cycling in what’s regarded as a dominant cycling style (in the middle of the road, preventing close passes etc.) The push for roads as shared space is very (sporty) male dominated and even though I’m part of that group, I’d prefer if we’d give up that push and strive for infrastructure that serves more people better. (Like the Dutch do)

u801e 7y ago

> The Dutch have that figured out. The problem is that the vast majority of motorists do not have significant experience riding a bicycle, so they don't know where to look for cyclists and will end up colliding with them when they pop out from behind parked cars within 30 feet of the intersection (when traveling at 20 feet per second).

stefs 7y ago
i can confirm this from my own experience. didn't use a bike to get around the city for years, but once i started, my (car) driving style changed noticeably. for example, i do a lot more shoulder checks to the right. i'm a very fast cyclist and sometimes overtake drivers on the right (when riding in the bike lane). some drivers can't fathom a cyclist being faster than them. the other thing is mirror checks when opening the car door. i even started to reprimand other drivers or passengers (depending on my role) for not checking. even though i'm riding fast i'm trying to be safety conscious and always assume a driver in a dangerous spot hasn't seen me; this is impossible for suddenly opening car doors.
- u801e 7y ago
  > once i started [cycling], my (car) driving style changed noticeably. for example, i do a lot more shoulder checks to the right. What I'll do is move further to the right when preparing to make a right turn in order to prevent cyclists from passing on the right. As a cyclist, I won't pass other vehicles on the right if there's a possibility that they could make a right turn, or a car from the opposite direction could make a left through a gap of stopped traffic, or a car approaching on the intersecting road on my right may not see me before pulling out. > i'm trying to be safety conscious and always assume a driver in a dangerous spot hasn't seen me; this is impossible for suddenly opening car doors. You can avoid opening car doors by riding at least 6 feet away from parked cars. I ignore door zine bike lanes and just ride in the center of the rightmost general purpose lane. Faster traffic can change lanes to pass me.
Xylakant 7y ago
The Dutch have that figured out, too. There’s so many bicycles around that you practically have to expect them everywhere any time. More bicycles make all bicycles safer. Intersections of car lanes and bike lines should also be designed in such a fashion that the lanes meet mostly at a right angle. Sharp turns and buffer spaces. A sharp turn slows the car traffic and the right angle at the intersecting point makes it easy to check for crossing (cycle) traffic. See for example this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA

tropo 7y ago

We really do have two kinds of cyclists, and we're unjustly forcing them to follow the same rules. We chose to treat bicycles more like cars than like pedestrians, to the detriment of less-capable cyclists who care to follow the law. We probably ought to offer and require license plates (tags) for people who wish to ride with the cars. Licensing would be as for a motorcycle, plus a requirement to demonstrate speed and acceleration. The plates could be colored by performance, indicating what roads may be used. Unlicensed riders, plus those not displaying their license plate, would have a low speed limit and would be restricted to low-speed roads. They would also be allowed on sidewalks as long as they are going slow.